Morality vs. Legalism
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17-09-2015, 05:45 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(16-09-2015 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If morality doesn’t exist. Why shouldn’t I interfere in the lives of others? Why shouldn’t I play God? Why do I need to justifying using force or aggression, other than just because I want to?

Are you at this point going to appeal to some version of the ethic of reciprocity? That since I wouldn’t want that form of aggression and force laid upon me, I should avoid laying it upon others?
No, I'm not going to tell you what you should or should not do. You're all grown up now. You can make your own decisions right? Stand up for your own actions.

I assume you know that you aren't the biggest kid in the playground. That if you look to push around others then eventually your gonna come up against someone that pushes you back. Eventually your gonna get fucked over.

You can use force and aggression on others, but those others will look to protect themselves from you. If you present an immediate danger then they will focus their attention on you. You will be removed as a danger.

I'm sure your able to think things through.
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17-09-2015, 06:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 06:26 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 05:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-09-2015 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If morality doesn’t exist. Why shouldn’t I interfere in the lives of others? Why shouldn’t I play God? Why do I need to justifying using force or aggression, other than just because I want to?

Are you at this point going to appeal to some version of the ethic of reciprocity? That since I wouldn’t want that form of aggression and force laid upon me, I should avoid laying it upon others?
No, I'm not going to tell you what you should or should not do. You're all grown up now. You can make your own decisions right? Stand up for your own actions.

I assume you know that you aren't the biggest kid in the playground. That if you look to push around others then eventually your gonna come up against someone that pushes you back. Eventually your gonna get fucked over.

You can use force and aggression on others, but those others will look to protect themselves from you. If you present an immediate danger then they will focus their attention on you. You will be removed as a danger.

I'm sure your able to think things through.

Ah yes, your appeal to karma. Some law of the universe it which if I do bad shit to people it's gonna eventually come back to me. There's no eventually here.

I could belong to the biggest kids in the play ground. Able to influence and construct laws unfavorable to small kids in the playground, who are too weak, too powerless, too insignificant, too unable to organize because they can't form binding beliefs about injustice, morality, because none of them believe in that stuff. They can't threaten violence, because the big kids would recognize their bluff, like wolves unfazed by the threats of the geese. There's no law of the universe that governs the inevitable toppling of the bully, sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. Sometimes the weak will remain weak and powerless, the never ending victim of violence and aggression that they may never overcome.

Then when do you just accept your lot in life? Recognize that there is no hope, or prospect of overcoming the bully here? That you can't even appeal to moral heartstrings, or injustice, or protest the evil that's been inflicted on you, because no such things exists?

You can't tell folks not to aim to be the bully, to seek to be those with the power and influence in their hands, to set the line, in ways that more favorable to them and less favorable to you. You also don't seem to recognize your threats of retaliation, of some preordained karma, are likely not to be taken as seriously.

If your society were to erupt into forms seen in the past, in which your Maori neighbor strung up on trees, I have little doubt that you would recognize something wrong with that, that doesn't amount to a fear or Maori retaliation. The only people to fear are those stringing folks on trees, and it's perhaps safer to go with them, than take a stand against them.

I do wonder what you would do if your son kept a wallet he found on a train, and decided to keep the money and everything in it? You can't tell him it's wrong because you don't believe in it. You can't remind of the ethic of reciprocity, because you don't believe in that either. You could try and tell him, that they will eventually find out, and he might go to jail, but he'll likely recognize the bluff, and unlikelihood of this outcome. So what do you do, pat him on the back for it?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-09-2015, 06:36 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(16-09-2015 05:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-09-2015 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yea, and I’m a person who follows catholic thought, whose own christian beliefs tend to mirror that of Catholic thinkers, and theologians a great deal. So your naive interpretation of ...
You're not Catholic though eh? My comment was regarding Catholics rather than those that like to mirror Catholics


My comments were regarding catholics as well, and the your comments regarding Catholics are entirely hackneyed and dismissible. Which is not surprising since you have acknowledged that it's difficult for you to understand religion, let alone catholicism. And as far as I know, never been religious yourself, so that world is one that's entirely alien to you.

I subscribe to catholic thought, but have no official denomination that I belong to. But being a believer, someone who actually subscribes to catholic thought, and teachings, it's not hard to recognize when you're erecting strawman. You obviously and admiringly don't understand religious beliefs, you've repeated that to me on numerous occasions, so any interpretation that you offer of those beliefs are guying to be plagued by this inability of yours.

Even though you and I have communicated a good deal, if I went around stating what Stevil believes, it wouldn't be long before you recognize that my representation of you is not all that accurate. Because you beliefs are perspectives are entirely alien to me, they come off as weird and bizarre, because I can't make them out that well, a perception that's likely to be true for you as well when it comes to religious folks.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-09-2015, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 07:09 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(16-09-2015 03:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:We could play with this of course. If morality doesn’t exist. Why shouldn’t I interfere in the lives of others? Why shouldn’t I play God? Why do I need to justifying using force or aggression, other than just because I want to?

Because society punishes those who step out of line. It's pretty simple.

Our society is fractured into a variety of competing groups. Some of those competing groups are not very affective or organizing, or even rallying around a cause. Liberal attempts to get out the youth vote, have been entirely ineffective. Where as conservative attempts to get out the evangelical votes, have been quite effective.

All these competing groups vie for power, to dictate where that line is drawn, typically drawn in favor of themselves, and not so favorable for other groups. And heavily influence by corporate interests, and those that financed their campaigns.

It's sort of nonsense to even speak of a society as a single thing these days, to lump Donald Trump supporters, and Bernie Sanders supporters as being of the same society. These groups have entirely different visions of what society should be, where the lines should be drawn.

People sometimes get punished for stepping out of line, sometimes they don't. It's clear poor black communities do. If you're part of a rich white community, not so much. You can get away with multiple murders, like Robert Durst, or that rich kid who got away with murdering four people, because of Affluenza.

I was reading some recent news article of how in China, a car accident in which individual is injured can be far more financially punitive to the perpetrator, than if they killed the victim. So what do people do? If you accidentally hit somebody, you reverse the car a few times to insure that you killed them. If you have money you pay off the cops, making it appear as if you didn't know it was an actual person, mistook him for a garbage bag, and get to walk away paying a small fine to the victims family.

For Stevil there's nothing immoral about this. In fact it's entirely rational course of action. Though I wonder if he was a similar situation would he favor behaving just as the perpetrators. His money more valuable that the innocent life of a stranger.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...ina_s.html

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-09-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
^^ Um, that's all very nice, but there's still no absolute morality.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-09-2015, 08:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 09:36 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 07:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ Um, that's all very nice, but there's still no absolute morality.

If you're an atheists of course, you can't believe in that stuff, because the existence of of absolute morality, would undermine your disbelief in a God, so we can't have that now can we?

I'm also not sure why you want to put the brakes on absolute morality, why not extend it a bit further, to moral realism, to moral subjectivism, etc... until you embrace Stevil's Nihilism?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-09-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 08:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 07:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ Um, that's all very nice, but there's still no absolute morality.

If you're an atheists of course, you can't believe in that stuff, because the existence of of absolute morality, would undermine your disbelief in a God, so we can't have that now can we?

I'm also not sure why you want to put the breaks on absolute morality, why not extend it a bit further, to moral realism, to moral subjectivism, etc... until you embrace Stevil's Nihilism?

Who said I didn't? Rolleyes What's so evil about nihilism?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-09-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 08:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 07:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ Um, that's all very nice, but there's still no absolute morality.

If you're an atheists of course, you can't believe in that stuff, because the existence of of absolute morality, would undermine your disbelief in a God, so we can't have that now can we?

I'm also not sure why you want to put the breaks on absolute morality, why not extend it a bit further, to moral realism, to moral subjectivism, etc... until you embrace Stevil's Nihilism?

*brakes
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17-09-2015, 09:47 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 09:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  Who said I didn't? Rolleyes What's so evil about nihilism?

Nothing.

But it is important to be able to distinguish folks who take issue with one particular form of moral beliefs, and those whose issues have implications on all moral beliefs.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-09-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 06:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Ah yes, your appeal to karma. Some law of the universe it which if I do bad shit to people it's gonna eventually come back to me. There's no eventually here.
No, not karma, I don't believe in mystic shit.

Just statistics and human nature.

People that care about themselves and care for their future don't go around being a physical menace to others as it inevitably ends up detrimental to yourself, i.e. prison or assaulted back.
It's about knowing your limitations, knowing the likely consequences of your own actions and trying to work out a successful path for yourself.
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