Morality vs. Legalism
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17-09-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 06:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I do wonder what you would do if your son kept a wallet he found on a train, and decided to keep the money and everything in it? You can't tell him it's wrong because you don't believe in it. You can't remind of the ethic of reciprocity, because you don't believe in that either. You could try and tell him, that they will eventually find out, and he might go to jail, but he'll likely recognize the bluff, and unlikelihood of this outcome. So what do you do, pat him on the back for it?
I don't have a son. I'd tell my daughter to give me the wallet, and I'd keep the money for myself, and then I'd pat myself on the back.
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17-09-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 06:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I subscribe to catholic thought,
No you don't.
You don't believe that the Catholic church is Yeshua's hand picked church.
You don't believe that the Catholic church is the one and only church guided by god.
You don't believe that the Catholic church is infallible on certain matters.
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17-09-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(02-08-2015 08:25 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  I am a man of many theories; not all of them good, as is evident from my post "A Mathematical Argument Against Life Elsewhere in the Universe"

I would like to present a theory to my peers (other members of this forum) for your comments and opinions.

I think that much of the confusion surrounding religion is caused by the conflation of the concepts of "legalism" and "morality". I am defining legalism as obedience to a set of laws or rules with the express purpose of attaining a reward and/or avoiding punishment. A set of laws may be political, whereby they are given by a dictator or a legislature or they may be institutional, whereby they are established by the governing body of an institution, or they may be religious, whereby the "lawgiver" is claimed to be a supernatural being or beings, and revealed to a "prophet" by this supernatural being.

This can be contrasted with "morality" which, at least according to science, is the result of our evolution. The morality of an act is contained in the act, itself, not in the authority of the lawgiver. An act is not "moral" because it is stems from a political or institutional law or because it is the will of God, supposedly revealed to Abraham or Moses or Mohammad or John Smith.

To obey such rules or laws is mere legalism--not morality. We may not entirely understand what moral behavior is and what it is not, but we can be sure that that question of the morality of an act is an entirely different consideration from the question of what is a mere legality within the context of any particular religion. Morality can also be applied universally (cross-culturally). This is obviously not true of legal systems, whether political, institutional, or religious.

This cements my conviction that Human Rights (based on moral actions) must take precedence over religious freedoms (mere legalities).

Comments?
Religion is to be universal. And yes morality is different from law as you stated for some reward or escape for self. In there lies the biggest problem with divided religion. I attest that faith in a creator is not synonymous with any division of good acts of any sort, be it religious or otherwise. There is one conscience and it is universal and connected, in some way to, everything. Generally, previous religion is focused on naming God or a higher power. This, in itself is either the cause or the effect of the higher ups that are responsible for manipulation of truth for personal, material, selfish gain.
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17-09-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 02:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 08:25 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  I am a man of many theories; not all of them good, as is evident from my post "A Mathematical Argument Against Life Elsewhere in the Universe"

I would like to present a theory to my peers (other members of this forum) for your comments and opinions.

I think that much of the confusion surrounding religion is caused by the conflation of the concepts of "legalism" and "morality". I am defining legalism as obedience to a set of laws or rules with the express purpose of attaining a reward and/or avoiding punishment. A set of laws may be political, whereby they are given by a dictator or a legislature or they may be institutional, whereby they are established by the governing body of an institution, or they may be religious, whereby the "lawgiver" is claimed to be a supernatural being or beings, and revealed to a "prophet" by this supernatural being.

This can be contrasted with "morality" which, at least according to science, is the result of our evolution. The morality of an act is contained in the act, itself, not in the authority of the lawgiver. An act is not "moral" because it is stems from a political or institutional law or because it is the will of God, supposedly revealed to Abraham or Moses or Mohammad or John Smith.

To obey such rules or laws is mere legalism--not morality. We may not entirely understand what moral behavior is and what it is not, but we can be sure that that question of the morality of an act is an entirely different consideration from the question of what is a mere legality within the context of any particular religion. Morality can also be applied universally (cross-culturally). This is obviously not true of legal systems, whether political, institutional, or religious.

This cements my conviction that Human Rights (based on moral actions) must take precedence over religious freedoms (mere legalities).

Comments?
Religion is to be universal. And yes morality is different from law as you stated for some reward or escape for self. In there lies the biggest problem with divided religion. I attest that faith in a creator is not synonymous with any division of good acts of any sort, be it religious or otherwise. There is one conscience and it is universal and connected, in some way to, everything. Generally, previous religion is focused on naming God or a higher power. This, in itself is either the cause or the effect of the higher ups that are responsible for manipulation of truth for personal, material, selfish gain.

Popsy - you mind repeating what you are trying to say here when you are sober again?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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17-09-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 03:42 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 02:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Religion is to be universal. And yes morality is different from law as you stated for some reward or escape for self. In there lies the biggest problem with divided religion. I attest that faith in a creator is not synonymous with any division of good acts of any sort, be it religious or otherwise. There is one conscience and it is universal and connected, in some way to, everything. Generally, previous religion is focused on naming God or a higher power. This, in itself is either the cause or the effect of the higher ups that are responsible for manipulation of truth for personal, material, selfish gain.

Popsy - you mind repeating what you are trying to say here when you are sober again?
Don't give God the Creator a specific name. Allah or Brahman or Yahweh or Jesus or Krishna or Buddha or any other name is just cause for division, and henceforth much pain through out history. At the core teachings of all rightly guided religions lies a belief in positive outwardly good production without the want of earthly gain. This is pretty much the opposite of societal norms at this time. Those in power grip hold of their lofty material positions and possessions with the utmost ferocity, and selfish incline.

Everyone, in theory, should be able to agree that there is a higher power, or creative force, at least to some extent. Doing what is good and right selflessly and with thanks for the opportunity( to existence itself if only to grow from their) through experience can be a reciprocally beneficial thing. Surely the atheists are aware of this, if only in part. There is a way for real change that will lead to better existence for the future and for ourselves as a side effect.
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17-09-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 04:06 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Everyone, in theory, should be able to agree that there is a higher power, or creative force, at least to some extent.

What theory would that be? Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-09-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 02:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  There is one conscience and it is universal and connected, in some way to, everything.

conscience or consciousness or both? In any event, I'm still waiting for any shred of evidence that anything you say is more than your own self-delusion.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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17-09-2015, 04:59 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(16-09-2015 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  We could play with this of course. If morality doesn’t exist. Why shouldn’t I interfere in the lives of others? Why shouldn’t I play God? Why do I need to justifying using force or aggression, other than just because I want to?

Mainly because you would get your ass kicked.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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17-09-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 04:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 02:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  There is one conscience and it is universal and connected, in some way to, everything.

conscience or consciousness or both? In any event, I'm still waiting for any shred of evidence that anything you say is more than your own self-delusion.
Both technically. One can know all kinds of shit. It they don't act on it then they are wasting it and life
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17-09-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-09-2015 04:06 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Everyone, in theory, should be able to agree that there is a higher power, or creative force, at least to some extent.
Would the fundamental forces of nature count as a "higher" power (gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear)? These dictate all physical events.

In terms of the complexity of replicating structures would the "creative" force be the "fitness" (given environmental pressures) of each replicating structure. It's more of a "sustainable" or "proliferation" force rather than a "creative" one. The creativity comes from random mutation but obviously the filtering inherent in the "survival of the "fitest" process is required to remove the poorly suited replicating structures otherwise we would end up with a high entropy chaotic static.
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