Morality vs. Legalism
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22-09-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(16-09-2015 11:38 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-09-2015 11:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Your comments are off topic.

Er, no. Commenting on the errors you make is entirely on topic.

If you're going to dodge, try to do so less blatantly.

(16-09-2015 11:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I said earlier what objective means, several times on several posts, and now you are shifting the posts. An objective something is a factual something, and a subjective something is an opinion.

I have shifted nothing.

I have, however, pointed out that "I cannot think of a situation in which I would approve of rape" does not make "rape is objectively wrong" true. "Objectively wrong" is still a nonsense phrase.

"Objectively wrong" is a nonsense phrase if there are no objective wrongs. However, there are.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-09-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Objectively wrong" is a nonsense phrase if there are no objective wrongs. However, there are.

And we're back to bare assertion.

Around and around and around we go...

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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22-09-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There is no truth.

That's nonsensical. Saying there is no truth is like saying there is no reality.
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22-09-2015, 12:39 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 11:29 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There is no truth.

That's nonsensical. Saying there is no truth is like saying there is no reality.


Not really. There may be an objective reality, but we're limited to forming mental pictures of it.

Our mental pictures are competing ones. And we can never truly be confident that our mental representations of reality are accurate representations of it, because reality itself isn't a mental picture.

In the way that we reduce morals from actual duties and obligations, to likes and dislikes.

Truth is more accurately represented by reducing it to utility. You believe somethings things are true because it's useful to believe they are true.

But objective truth like objective morality is just an illusion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 12:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But objective truth like objective morality is just an illusion.

I thought you were getting it but then I read your previous post and now I'm not so sure...

Truth is merely a word. We *know* certain things, as far as they can be known, about the *objective* reality of our world. These things are true.

You're moaning about how science is a world view. Propose a better method then, for discovering objective truth.

You also want that we should treat religion as true even if it is not really??? What the fuck is that shit? No ways.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-09-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 12:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 11:29 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  That's nonsensical. Saying there is no truth is like saying there is no reality.


Not really. There may be an objective reality, but we're limited to forming mental pictures of it.

Our mental pictures are competing ones. And we can never truly be confident that our mental representations of reality are accurate representations of it, because reality itself isn't a mental picture.

In the way that we reduce morals from actual duties and obligations, to likes and dislikes.

Truth is more accurately represented by reducing it to utility. You believe somethings things are true because it's useful to believe they are true.

But objective truth like objective morality is just an illusion.

And though, if we couldn't be confident in our mental representations we still can't be confident in the same manner that objective truth is an illusion.. or that it isn't. It's something either way the confidence waivers on.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-09-2015, 02:10 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 01:59 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 12:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not really. There may be an objective reality, but we're limited to forming mental pictures of it.

Our mental pictures are competing ones. And we can never truly be confident that our mental representations of reality are accurate representations of it, because reality itself isn't a mental picture.

In the way that we reduce morals from actual duties and obligations, to likes and dislikes.

Truth is more accurately represented by reducing it to utility. You believe somethings things are true because it's useful to believe they are true.

But objective truth like objective morality is just an illusion.

And though, if we couldn't be confident in our mental representations we still can't be confident in the same manner that objective truth is an illusion.. or that it isn't. It's something either way the confidence waivers on.

But that's trajectory we've been on for sometime now, where I, free-will, objective morality are all illusions, even colors don't exist.

Lack of belief, is one symptom of that trajectory.

Trying to reconcile the scientific image and the manifest image has been no easy task, some believing it to be irreconcilable.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 02:23 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 01:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 12:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But objective truth like objective morality is just an illusion.

I thought you were getting it but then I read your previous post and now I'm not so sure...

Truth is merely a word. We *know* certain things, as far as they can be known, about the *objective* reality of our world. These things are true.

You're moaning about how science is a world view. Propose a better method then, for discovering objective truth.

You also want that we should treat religion as true even if it is not really??? What the fuck is that shit? No ways.

Science isn't a worldview it is as you correctly stated a method.

It only become a worldview for those that might try to elevate the methodology to an ontology, not everyone does that, not even all atheist do that.

Has it been an extremely successful method in insuring our health and wellbeing technological advance, and economic prosperity. Yes it unquestionably has.

I wouldn't have an iPhone or the Internet without it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-09-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism


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23-09-2015, 05:20 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(22-09-2015 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There is no truth.

If the above statement is true, then it can't be true, because truth would not exist. See the problem?

Morality, sure that's all human made up bs, but truth is defined as "being in accord with fact or reality". Truth has to exist by definition. Truth is what actually exists. No one needs to know the truth to know there is a truth. Also, we have one example of an impenetrable truth, "Cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am)", so we know that at least one truth exists. Even if we are brains in vats or computer simulations or something else, we still have to exist in order to be able to ponder our own existence.
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