Morality vs. Legalism
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24-09-2015, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2015 06:12 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 02:24 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 02:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Analogous here to the relationship between the software and hardware of a computer?

Essentially.


Yet the software is entirely reducible to the hardware.

Are mind states identical to brain states? You say the mind emerged from the brain, but it’s not entirely clear what the distinction you’re trying to make here is. Do all animals with brains have minds?

Are there mind states that are irreducible to brain states?

I would argue an entirely eliminative position here, that the mind is reducible to the brain, as well as consciousness thoughts, rather than acquiring any irreducible emergent properties.

Quote:Does it matter?

And, because you missed the point last time that I asked this question, the answer is "no". It could have come from any one of those. It could have come, in part, from every one. It doesn't matter, because no answer changes the fact that it is perfectly accounted for from a materialist standpoint.

Well, we could say that everything I’ve said over the last several post here, is perfectly consistent with a materialist standpoint. In fact both these options can be consistent with a materialist standpoint, or they can be a bit questionable, all depending on the explanation being offered.

But that’s not the same as being accounted for. An accounting requires some explanation. It doesn’t have to be the correct one, but it would least have to be a reasonable one. If you say we have a desire for truth, the accounting matters. Do all animals have a desire for truth, or just the human animal? If “truth” is an abstraction what would it mean to have a desire for it?

Is it to say we have desire to know how we got here? Is that what the desire for truth amounts to, a desire not to merely navigate our lives, but to recognize the source of it?

Quote:In many ways, yes, but the brain is not so simple as that. Much of what people think of as conscious decision-making is done subconsciously, it's true, but conscious reasoning does have several points in the cycle where it is capable of stepping in and overriding things. That is, in fact, what many hypothesize as its entire purpose from an evolutionary standpoint. The ability to put the brakes on instinct can come in very handy.

So, essentially, you need to set clear criteria for what you mean by "passenger" before anyone can give a definitive answer.


You don’t subscribe to dualism, so I doubt you would say that there are mental forces, and physical forces. So wouldn’t any force that produces a conscious thought, or everyday thought, be a product of physical forces acting on your brain?

A conscious thought that puts a break on my instinct, would be doing so through a physical forces. The thought itself would be a product of physical forces as well. Do you disagree?

Quote:
(24-09-2015 02:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except the one we’ve been arguing over the last several post.

We haven't been arguing over anything for the past few posts. I've just been pointing out your failure to understand the terms in play, the incoherence of your "arguments", and trying to get an actual explanation out of you.

But you're determined to run this in circles rather than to just come out and present a point.

I want an argument. When I make a point, it’s for the sake of on argument, to hear meaningful objections. But when I find myself repeatedly trying to get you to understand my theistic points and premises, before I can even get an actual argument out of you, then it’s only going to be a short while before it gets boring. That's when I resort to a creative solution, by playing the devil’s advocate, and try to formulate the best counter argument I can compose myself, using you and other actual atheists to flush and expand that out.

I get far more out of you this way, than the other way. Since the devil’s advocate here is eliminative materialism, I want to know how well I can synthesis your materialist perspective with his.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-09-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 02:24 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  But you're determined to run this in circles rather than to just come out and present a point.

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.




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24-09-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet the software is entirely reducible to the hardware.

Again, essentially. And, again, this is technically true in the case of every computer. All software is simply a series of changes in patterns of bits. It is simply useless to model it that way.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are mind states identical to brain states?

Essentially. Again, minds are brain activity.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You say the mind emerged from the brain, but it’s not entirely clear what the distinction you’re trying to make here is.

A car is not its motion.

The distinction is quite obvious.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do all animals with brains have minds?

Quite possibly, depending on the complexity of the brain in question and exactly what is required for a mind to form. We don't precisely know that yet, though the previously-mentioned integrated information theory looks quite promising and, fully formulated, would be able to tell us precisely which systems produce consciousness and which do not.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are there mind states that are irreducible to brain states?

No.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would argue an entirely eliminative position here, that the mind is reducible to the brain, as well as consciousness thoughts, rather than acquiring any irreducible emergent properties.

Emergent properties are not impossible to reduce. It is just practically useless to do so.

We have been over this before.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  An accounting requires some explanation. It doesn’t have to be the correct one, but it would least have to be a reasonable one.

Materialism does have a reasonable explanation.

No other ontology does. They simply hand-wave away the question or assert that a wizard did it.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you say we have a desire for truth, the accounting matters. Do all animals have a desire for truth, or just the human animal? If “truth” is an abstraction what would it mean to have a desire for it?

Neither of those questions matters. They are irrelevant distractions.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You don’t subscribe to dualism, so I doubt you would say that there are mental forces, and physical forces. So wouldn’t any force that produces a conscious thought, or everyday thought, be a product of physical forces acting on your brain?

Yes.

(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I want an argument.

Then present one.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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24-09-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 06:47 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You say the mind emerged from the brain, but it’s not entirely clear what the distinction you’re trying to make here is.

A car is not its motion.

The distinction is quite obvious.

Not in regards to the mind/brain distinction, and that’s quite obvious.

A car is not reducible to it’s motion.
But a mind is reducible to the brain.

Quote:
(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would argue an entirely eliminative position here, that the mind is reducible to the brain, as well as consciousness thoughts, rather than acquiring any irreducible emergent properties.

Emergent properties are not impossible to reduce. It is just practically useless to do so.

We have been over this before.

It can be quite useful, depending on the situation. If one were to argue against property dualism, and substance dualism, it’s a useful thing to argue that all mental properties are reducible to physical properties.

Quote:
(24-09-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I want an argument.

Then present one.

All mental properties are reducible to physical properties, that are controlled by physical forces. These physical forces acting upon the brain, control and dictate what we believe, see, and think, as well as everything else about us. We’re just puppets controlled by it’s strings.

An entirely coherent and accurate argument can be stated, in a series of propositions, but unless those propositions can create a series of physical forces to change your mind, you won’t.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-09-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 06:47 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  A car is not its motion.

The distinction is quite obvious.

Not in regards to the mind/brain distinction, and that’s quite obvious.

A car is not reducible to it’s motion.
But a mind is reducible to the brain.

You have it precisely backwards.

The motion of a car is reducible to its engine in the same way that a mind is reducible to the brain. A leg is not the same as the act of running.

Brains are not minds. You can have a brain and not have a mind. Corpses manage it quite easily.

Honestly, this is trivial.

(24-09-2015 08:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  All mental properties are reducible to physical properties, that are controlled by physical forces. These physical forces acting upon the brain, control and dictate what we believe, see, and think, as well as everything else about us. We’re just puppets controlled by it’s strings.

An entirely coherent and accurate argument can be stated, in a series of propositions, but unless those propositions can create a series of physical forces to change your mind, you won’t.

This still isn't an argument.

What is your point, Tom?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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24-09-2015, 08:22 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:09 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 08:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  All mental properties are reducible to physical properties, that are controlled by physical forces. These physical forces acting upon the brain, control and dictate what we believe, see, and think, as well as everything else about us. We’re just puppets controlled by it’s strings.

An entirely coherent and accurate argument can be stated, in a series of propositions, but unless those propositions can create a series of physical forces to change your mind, you won’t.

This still isn't an argument.

What is your point, Tom?

First I would like to know if you agree with me. That this is correct.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-09-2015, 08:25 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  First I would like to know if you agree with me. That this is correct.

Don't play stupid gotcha games, Tom. No one cares.

Present your argument or leave.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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24-09-2015, 08:40 PM
Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 08:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  First I would like to know if you agree with me. That this is correct.

Don't play stupid gotcha games, Tom. No one cares.

Present your argument or leave.

It's not a gotcha game. Is the most reduced summary of every point I've made over the last several threads that you kept trying to create a distance from.

I just closed that space.

Either you agree with it or you don't. If you don't, than I'm interested in hearing why. If you do, than it would least help explain why we're just chasing our own tails.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-09-2015, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2015 09:30 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is the most reduced summary of every point I've made over the last several threads that you kept trying to create a distance from.

I haven't been "trying to create a distance from" anything. I have been quite blunt about what my position is from the very beginning.

You are the one who has insisted upon running this around in circles and refusing to present an argument.

(24-09-2015 08:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Either you agree with it or you don't. If you don't, than I'm interested in hearing why. If you do, than it would least help explain why we're just chasing our own tails.

Yes, I agree.

Now post whatever argument you think you have against materialism.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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25-09-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(24-09-2015 08:57 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 08:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Either you agree with it or you don't. If you don't, than I'm interested in hearing why. If you do, than it would least help explain why we're just chasing our own tails.

Yes, I agree.

Now post whatever argument you think you have against materialism.

I don't have even a remotely recognizable argument against materialism, that would leave you any less confused than any of the other points that I've made. As of now I'm just interested in creating a predicative model in my head as to where the materialism project, if it remains consistent will go, that the greedy reductionist will always win, and I'm happy to facilitate and let them win.

My predictions were true in regards to you, now I need more participants, to test my predictions on, and for that I started elsewhere. I do appreciate all your input though. It did give me a good deal of the clarity I had hoped for.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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