Morality vs. Legalism
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17-08-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(07-08-2015 04:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 03:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Defining a set of moral codes or values does not make them objective.

I think you're missing the key, there, Chas.

Obviously Q's beliefs are the objective ones, because he feels like they are.

I would then ask all three of you, "What are your scriptures?" That is, what are your objective sets of ethics and morals, and where do they derive from? Natural law informs us that some species may eat their mates or offspring...

My beliefs are of course subjective, but my moral code isn't because I feel like it is. I have a book of statutes, codes, principles and etc. touching morality. Of course, atheists love to complain about holy scripture rather than attempting to justify where there so-called objective morals come from. Well, from where do yours come?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-08-2015, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2015 01:07 PM by Chas.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 04:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I think you're missing the key, there, Chas.

Obviously Q's beliefs are the objective ones, because he feels like they are.

I would then ask all three of you, "What are your scriptures?" That is, what are your objective sets of ethics and morals, and where do they derive from? Natural law informs us that some species may eat their mates or offspring...

We don't have any scriptures and morality is subjective.

Quote:My beliefs are of course subjective, but my moral code isn't because I feel like it is. I have a book of statutes, codes, principles and etc. touching morality. Of course, atheists love to complain about holy scripture rather than attempting to justify where there so-called objective morals come from. Well, from where do yours come?

Your book has some really fucked up statutes, codes, principles, etc. in it.

("and etc." is incorrect. "etc." is the abbreviation of "et cetera", Latin for "and all the rest")

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-08-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would then ask all three of you, "What are your scriptures?" That is, what are your objective sets of ethics and morals, and where do they derive from?

We don't have them.

You don't, either.

(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  My beliefs are of course subjective, but my moral code isn't because I feel like it is. I have a book of statutes, codes, principles and etc. touching morality.

Being written down does not magically make your personal moral code any more universal.

(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course, atheists love to complain about holy scripture rather than attempting to justify where there so-called objective morals come from. Well, from where do yours come?

They don't exist, so they don't come from anywhere.

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17-08-2015, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2015 01:41 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 04:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I think you're missing the key, there, Chas.

Obviously Q's beliefs are the objective ones, because he feels like they are.

I would then ask all three of you, "What are your scriptures?" That is, what are your objective sets of ethics and morals, and where do they derive from? Natural law informs us that some species may eat their mates or offspring...

My beliefs are of course subjective, but my moral code isn't because I feel like it is. I have a book of statutes, codes, principles and etc. touching morality. Of course, atheists love to complain about holy scripture rather than attempting to justify where there so-called objective morals come from. Well, from where do yours come?

So if I right down something in a book, and trick enough poor ignorant saps into believing it is the divine work of a god, I too can be the author of my own set of Objective Moral Precepts™!

Fuck, who knew objective morality was so damn easy? Rolleyes

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17-08-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 01:05 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  My beliefs are of course subjective, but my moral code isn't because I feel like it is. I have a book of statutes, codes, principles and etc. touching morality.

Being written down does not magically make your personal moral code any more universal.
Yes, it seems Q's morals are the subjective opinions of the author/s of the bible.
Perhaps relevant to some people's lives in a time thousands of years ago.
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17-08-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
A lot of the morality of the Bible (at least the Pentateuch) boils down to "kill everyone except the virgin women -- those you can keep for yourselves". I don't think too many Christians would claim that for their morality, but there it is in the Bible -- over and over and over again.
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17-08-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 03:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  A lot of the morality of the Bible (at least the Pentateuch) boils down to "kill everyone except the virgin women -- those you can keep for yourselves". I don't think too many Christians would claim that for their morality, but there it is in the Bible -- over and over and over again.
The problem is that you aren't interpretting it correctly.
"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
Interpretation, it is frowned upon to cheat but we won't punish you.

"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death"
Interpretation, it is a bit odd to do the jiggy with the livestock but we won't kill you for it.

"And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast."
Interpretation, like I said, a bit odd to do the jiggy, but we won't kill you and we won't kill your unfortunated livestock victim.

"He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him"
Interpretation. Yeah, frowned upon, but not to be punished at all.

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death."
Interpretation. Take a break man, but if you don't, no worries, She'll be right.

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him"
Interpretation, don't be a dick to your parents, otherwise they might put you in naughty corner or ban you from the internet or tv or somefink equally as terrible.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"
Interpretation, gay men should be imprisoned or put to death.

"And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Interpretation, Woah, dude, that's your mum or step mum, your dad's gonna be pissed! But he can't hit you or hurt you or anything, he can shout at you though.

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you."
Interpretation, lock up the rapist, look after the victim, take care of her, help her.

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die"
Interpretation, Virgins are great but non virgins are great too, bless them all.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Interpretation, It would be silly to believe in witches.

"He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Interpretation, It's ok for people to believe in other gods, it's upto them really!

You get the gist of this interpretation thing, right?
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17-08-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 03:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You get the gist of this interpretation thing, right?

Not quite sure how to handle this one...

"And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, [with] the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

and later when dividing up the booty...

"And the LORD's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen. And the beeves [were] thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD's tribute [was] threescore and twelve. And the asses [were] thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD's tribute [was] threescore and one. And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute [was] thirty and two persons."

What exactly did god do with 32 virgins?

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17-08-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 03:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Interpretation, It would be silly to believe in witches.

A good example of this one:

"Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death. Was that what you call the 'Rule of Human Nature or Right Conduct?’ But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did—if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather—surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did? There is no difference of moral principle here: the difference is simply about matter of fact. It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house."

C. S. Lewis, from Mere Christianity
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17-08-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: Morality vs. Legalism
(17-08-2015 03:35 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  "...there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house."

C. S. Lewis, from Mere Christianity
There you go. Interpretation at its bewildering finest.


I can see the allure given the intellectual challenge to make the bible conform to ones own moral standard.
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