Morally Justifiable.
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20-02-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(20-02-2015 08:34 AM)Blackout Wrote:  Murder - In my native language murder equates homicide, so if we're talking simply about killing another human being there's many self-defense scenarios. If we're talking about unlawful murder I can think of a really bad person that either is killed or will continue to do evil things, and in that case I think it is justified - Just imagine if someone had murdered Hitler

AKA The Dexter Defense Big Grin

I can see that being justifiable in some cases, particularly if there is no reasonable way to isolate and confine the person causing the harm.

Quote:Theft - Any case of hunger or basic needs justifies theft IMO as long as excessive force isn't used

I can understand that, and sympathize with it, but I can't go so far as to agree with it without much more specific information (how desperate, what is 'excessive' force, who is being stolen from, etc). I would probably still consider it wrong but the mitigating circumstances would certainly minimize any penalties.

If I believed somebody was planning to harm others I could justify stealing their means of carrying out such acts.

Quote:Rape - IMO there is no plausible scenario. Even the case of only being 2 people in the world is not only highly improbable but still doesn't make rape ok - I don't see why people value the survival of human species so much, if I was alone with another human in an apocalyptic situation I wouldn't rape her and I wouldn't be interested in our survival.

As ClydeLee noted, I'd probably have to go to some extreme situation like "rape her or these thousand children will die slow, painful deaths" to even begin to consider it justifiable. I'm not sure what it would take for me, but at least in that situation I'd understand how somebody could see it as morally justified.

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20-02-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(19-02-2015 11:04 PM)ResistenceXD0001 Wrote:  I want to have an experiment in thought...... There are many things considered morally wrong in our society. I would like each of you, to try and find, in your opinion, a justifiable situation for each of the 3 things i am about to list.

1: Murder. Evil_monster

2: Theft Evil_monster

3: Rape (this one is a tough for me.) Evil_monster

Note: I don't endorse any of the 3 things i just listed.

Ill be very interested in what you guys come up with, CIAO!!

Sure:

1: Murder, when I want to.

2: Theft, when I want to.

3: Rape, when I want to.

I guess it's a good thing for all my would be victims, that I don't really want to do these things.
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20-02-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(19-02-2015 11:04 PM)ResistenceXD0001 Wrote:  I want to have an experiment in thought...... There are many things considered morally wrong in our society. I would like each of you, to try and find, in your opinion, a justifiable situation for each of the 3 things i am about to list.

1: Murder. Evil_monster

2: Theft Evil_monster

3: Rape (this one is a tough for me.) Evil_monster

Note: I don't endorse any of the 3 things i just listed.

Ill be very interested in what you guys come up with, CIAO!!

I can't.

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21-02-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(20-02-2015 10:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-02-2015 11:04 PM)ResistenceXD0001 Wrote:  I want to have an experiment in thought...... There are many things considered morally wrong in our society. I would like each of you, to try and find, in your opinion, a justifiable situation for each of the 3 things i am about to list.

1: Murder. Evil_monster

2: Theft Evil_monster

3: Rape (this one is a tough for me.) Evil_monster

Note: I don't endorse any of the 3 things i just listed.

Ill be very interested in what you guys come up with, CIAO!!

Sure:

1: Murder, when I want to.

2: Theft, when I want to.

3: Rape, when I want to.

I guess it's a good thing for all my would be victims, that I don't really want to do these things.

I guess its a good thing you don't live next to me. You might change your mind.

Actually I don't believe you. I can't believe that you have no empathy or concern for others. Because if I did any of those things it would ruin my life. I would never have a chance at happiness after that. I could not because I hold life as my standard of value. I guess you hold whatever you feel like doing as your standard of value.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-02-2015, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2015 09:32 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(21-02-2015 09:08 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(20-02-2015 10:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure:

1: Murder, when I want to.

2: Theft, when I want to.

3: Rape, when I want to.

I guess it's a good thing for all my would be victims, that I don't really want to do these things.

I guess its a good thing you don't live next to me. You might change your mind.

Actually I don't believe you. I can't believe that you have no empathy or concern for others.

No, I have the same series of biological sensations as everyone else, often referred to as empathy. A sensation that would likely be disturbed, in a seemingly unpleasant way if I were to contemplate killing a person, sort of like when contemplating eating a raw fish, or a very sour lime, or hearing the sound of fingers scraping a chalk board.

I don't go around killing people, because it's unpleasant for me. If it were to become no longer unpleasant for me, and in fact pleasant, and I wasn't particularly afraid of all the risks associated with getting caught, then perhaps I would.

I understand many would like to me dress all this up in some flowery moral language, rather than expressing it as raw and to the bone, because this makes certain folks uncomfortable. But I think morality is just an illusion grown men tell themselves to sleep more comfortably at night. It's a part of our incapacities to let go of vestigial religious beliefs, and taboos.
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21-02-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(21-02-2015 09:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
sort of like when contemplating eating a raw fish, or a very sour lime, or hearing the sound of fingers scraping a chalk board.
...

Nom nom nom...

[Image: sashimi-resized.jpg][Image: Garlic-and-Lime-Chicken-Broccoli-and-Rice21.jpg]

But I'm with you regarding finger nail scraping. Just like the thought of killing. Just like it. Dodgy
(21-02-2015 09:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
But I think morality is just an illusion grown men tell themselves to sleep more comfortably at night. It's a part of our incapacities to let go of vestigial religious beliefs, and taboos.

Except the basis of morality (empathy, reciprocity, disgust, loyalty, etc.) evolved before the religion-memes started to infect mammals i.e. before language began to develop.

So there's that.

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21-02-2015, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2015 11:40 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(21-02-2015 10:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-02-2015 09:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
But I think morality is just an illusion grown men tell themselves to sleep more comfortably at night. It's a part of our incapacities to let go of vestigial religious beliefs, and taboos.

Except the basis of morality (empathy, reciprocity, disgust, loyalty, etc.) evolved before the religion-memes started to infect mammals i.e. before language began to develop.

So there's that.

This "basis" of morality, is a series of biological sensations, in which we created entire cottage industries around, just like the biological sensations associated with tasty dishes and sounds have given rise to full fledged moneymaking schemes, world-class chefs, rincky-dink food trucks, bar singers, and Half-Time performances. And a plethora of music and food critics, who judge the consistency and overall flavor balance, and our expressions of overall disappoint with a dish at the local diner on Yelp.

The cottage industry surrounding moral perceptions, spurned religious beliefs like we exist to serve some higher purpose, and a series of convoluted moral philosophies, and belief systems, that have just tricked us into believing that morality is something more than a series of biological sensations, so unique and special unlike soothing sounds or tasty entrees. When in reality the only difference is that one involves the nerves in our ears, and the other our mouth.

At the end of day all that we call morally wrong, like all that music we claim sounds horrible, and taste bad is how unpleasant it makes us feel. To imagine it more than this, is just wishful thinking, is just a series of beliefs in beliefs. It's about time we take the ax to morality, as we have to religion.
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21-02-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(21-02-2015 10:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Except the basis of morality (empathy, reciprocity, disgust, loyalty, etc.) evolved before the religion-memes started to infect mammals i.e. before language began to develop.

So there's that.

Silly DLJ, don't you know that gawd imbues your heart with his morality and your soul when you're conceived?

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21-02-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
(21-02-2015 11:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-02-2015 10:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Except the basis of morality (empathy, reciprocity, disgust, loyalty, etc.) evolved before the religion-memes started to infect mammals i.e. before language began to develop.

So there's that.

This "basis" of morality, is a series of biological sensations, in which we created entire cottage industries around, just like the biological sensations associated with tasty dishes and sounds have given rise to full fledged moneymaking schemes, world-class chefs, rincky-dink food trucks, bar singers, and Half-Time performances. And a plethora of music and food critics, who judge the consistency and overall flavor balance, and our expressions of overall disappoint with a dish at the local diner on Yelp.

The cottage industry surrounding moral perceptions, spurned religious beliefs like we exist to serve some higher purpose, and a series of convoluted moral philosophies, and belief systems, that have just tricked us into believing that morality is something more than a series of biological sensations, so unique and special unlike soothing sounds or tasty entrees. When in reality the only difference is that one involves the nerves in our ears, and the other our mouth.

At the end of day all that we call morally wrong, like all that music we claim sounds horrible, and taste bad is how unpleasant it makes us feel. To imagine it more than this, is just wishful thinking, is just a series of beliefs in beliefs. It's about time we take the ax to morality, as we have to religion.

I agree. Completely.

You are describing morality from a 'design' perspective (i.e. biological utility).

But take it beyond the self and we move into the arena of society and 'intent'.

Thus ethics.

Let's not axe (Brit spelling) ethics or we're all fucked.

Wink

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21-02-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: Morally Justifiable.
For rape, it would have to be an issue of cultural context... Such as if I were Hmong in the relatively recent past.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping

In which case it wouldn't really be considered rape, just marriage.

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