Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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18-11-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 04:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Hmmm... I'm not sure I see how I could have obligations that were imposed by anybody but myself. I will have to think about that.


Exactly, if all it requires for you to no longer be obligated, is for you to decide to no longer be, than they are not in fact obligations, they are in essence just your personal preferences.

One down, any other takers?

Please define "obligations" as you refer to them.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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18-11-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
A couple of pages back a demographic breakdown of the American prison population as a way of demonstrating that athiests are more moral than christians. I do disagree with the position and I do take issue with the importance of the stated figure; 0.02% of the prison population are athiests.

I don't think thats demonstrative of a moral highground or being moral on a person to person basis.
Athiesim corelates with how well informed somebody is about our scientific understanding of the world. That understanding is directly proportional to how well educated somebody is. Education correlates with how much money people have. Poorer people make up the vast majority of the prison population.

I don't buy that athiests trend to being more moral for the same reason. Athiesim correlates with education, education correlates with oppertunities and by extention the ability to be more moral.

I would bet that of the people on this site, the overwhelming majority have never had to steal to live, never had to defend all their worldly goods with violence and have never been homeless, destitute and without support or valueable skill at the same time. Affluence creates space to be more moral.

I do, however, believe people when they say their morality stems from their religious beliefs but not because they're religious. Even if a religion was entirely factually true; the story is an accurate telling of events, the deity does exist as described and the various spells and rituals had a specific, palpable result, it would still be a fable:

A story for the purpose of communicating morality.

So it's in turn a story used to make a shared understanding of moral behaviour. That's why most christian parents don't teach their kids the entire biblical text: They don't teach the parts they don't concider moral because that would be counter productive.

That'd also be why people discard some tenents of their religion as they grow and still concider themselves to be a member of that religion. They gained a new understanding of what is moral behaviour and that informed their choices. (Like the example of a higher divorce rate between fundamentalist christians a page or so ago. It's a good example I just don't know if it's true. It has truthyness though.)

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18-11-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:17 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society.

Doesn't that mean that you're not really obligated?

No, it doesn't mean that. The obligations are the price for participating in society.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-11-2014, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2014 04:29 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:13 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  A couple of pages back a demographic breakdown of the American prison population as a way of demonstrating that athiests are more moral than christians. I do disagree with the position and I do take issue with the importance of the stated figure; 0.02% of the prison population are athiests.

That .02% is the self-identified atheist population in US prisons. Self-identified atheist in the US population as whole hovers at .07% currently.

Atheists when speaking of the general population tend to include the unaffiliated to fluff their numbers, but at the same time excluding them from the prison survey use for the .02% figure. Once the unaffiliated prison population is included the number hovers at about 20% the last I remember.
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18-11-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
^Thank you. On phone so I didn't double check.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

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18-11-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:17 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  Doesn't that mean that you're not really obligated?

No, it doesn't mean that. The obligations are the price for participating in society.

Not according to unflogged. It's not participating in society that makes him obligated, since he doesn't believe that others who participate are obligated the same way.

But do you believe in moral obligations?
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18-11-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 04:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Hmmm... I'm not sure I see how I could have obligations that were imposed by anybody but myself. I will have to think about that.


Exactly, if all it requires for you to no longer be obligated, is for you to decide to no longer be, than they are not in fact obligations, they are in essence just your personal preferences.

One down, any other takers?

Then I do not understand your use of obligation, particularly in the context of a moral obligation. Please define your terms.

I stand by the claim that I recognize moral obligations but do not believe in any deity.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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18-11-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:27 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ^Thank you. On phone so I didn't double check.

"Unknown: "22 percent are categorized as 'unknown,' representing inmates who didn't say or didn't care when asked for their religious denomination." Most of these would be classified functionally in the "nonreligious" category."

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

Atheists tend to conveniently leave this category out when speaking of the prison population, though they conveniently use them when speaking of their own numbers as a whole.

Or in other words they do some Fox News worthy spinning of the numbers, and lack the sort of skepticism they promote in regards to their own bs.
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18-11-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 04:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it doesn't mean that. The obligations are the price for participating in society.

Not according to unflogged. It's not participating in society that makes him obligated, since he doesn't believe that others who participate are obligated the same way.

But do you believe in moral obligations?

that's unfogged, not unflogged. I make no claims or denials to the accusation of being unflogged! Big Grin

I said that the obligations would likely overlap significantly but not be identical. Every person does not participate in society to the same extent or in the same way so naturally every person can have a unique set of obligations.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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18-11-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
ob·li·ga·tion noun \ˌä-blə-ˈgā-shən\ : something that you must do because of a law, rule, promise, etc.

: something that you must do because it is morally right

These rules, laws, promises, and morals differ across the globe so why this presumption that every human has the same obligations? Do you get out much and see the rest of reality outside your little bubble with your own rules and expectations?

Tomasia,
How do you define obligation?

Why do you insist I am a "closet believer" if I follow these man-made rules and laws? Oh, and please define believer, since you seem to make this term distinct from atheist.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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