Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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19-11-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  Do you have an obligation to represent your faith in a good light boyo? 'Cos you're failing Wink

Just because I'm going around giving everybody a nice dose of spankings, doesn't mean I'm not being good.
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19-11-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 06:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 02:10 AM)DunkleSeele Wrote:  If by "my work" you mean acting like the proverbial chess-playing

It is very much like playing chess, everyone that decided to play will lose. It's only those that sit on the sidelines that don't have a chance to play.

I'm not so sure you know what chess is... As there is undoubtedly a winner when playing chess.

Either that, or you believe that you didn't decide to play (which would imply a lack of free will) and are destined to win (which shows your level of delusion and lack of willingness to make concessions).
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19-11-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 07:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  Do you have an obligation to represent your faith in a good light boyo? 'Cos you're failing Wink

Just because I'm going around giving everybody a nice dose of spankings, doesn't mean I'm not being good.

Stop; I can't laugh harder.

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19-11-2014, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 07:44 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 09:19 PM)unfogged Wrote:  So you claim that we have moral obligations but we can assume that they don't exist?
I made no claims here about us having moral obligations, therefore I have no need to defend claims here that I did not make.

The challenge I accepted was one showcasing the conflict of being an atheist and believing we have moral obligations. Anything beyond this particular challenge is not one that I have accepted.

But just for fyi, believers of any stripe believe that there are moral obligation of some sort, that even your sense of obligation is in fact real and that obligation is to something higher than yourself, like the moral arc of the universe, and these obligation are made real just by the very nature of being human. We fail in essence by not living up to what we were intended to live up to, an intention and purpose inherent to us from birth. It could just be that these beliefs are all as imaginary as a tooth fairy, then we all are just back to square 1, that there are no moral obligations. You can very much claim that these beliefs in the something beyond ourselves is imaginary, and false, but I'm not interested in arguing the point. Forcing me to argue this, against my own will, is tantamount to rape, and I will call the appropriate authorities if need be.


Fuck you jackass.

(17-11-2014 11:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." -Christopher Hitchens

(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Easy, "We have moral obligations".

A non-believer who claims to believe this would just be a closeted believer of some sort.

Discuss.


Note for the slow: The bold part is a CLAIM you fuckwad.


(18-11-2014 10:59 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Facepalm

Yeah, because believing you have moral obligation to anything BUT a super-natural deity just isn't possible. Moral obligations to friends, family, communities, societies, your species, or planet? Doesn't count. The ONLY moral obligation people are allowed to have are the ones that make them Theists.

Are you really that fucking stupid?

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 09:19 PM)unfogged Wrote:  So you claim that we have moral obligations but we can assume that they don't exist?
I made no claims here about us having moral obligations, therefore I have no need to defend claims here that I did not make.

You claimed that having moral obligations is something that is inherently theistic in nature. Not that they objectively exists outside of our subjective experience of reality, but rather that simply having them (as vague as they are) makes one a theist regardless.

Now someone who's not so touched in the head might be able to parse that you can believe you have moral obligations and abide by them, even if those obligations aren't 'objective truth' or in any other way based on a belief in the super-natural, deities, or religion. Just as how a civilian who enters a volunteer military takes on the obligations, moral and otherwise, proscribed and enforced by said military; regardless of religious faith or lack thereof. But that would require the half of a brain you apparently lack.

TL;DR version - Yes, Tomasia is just that fucking stupid. /Thread

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19-11-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:36 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  I'm not so sure you know what chess is... As there is undoubtedly a winner when playing chess.

There undoubtedly is a winner, it's just that my opponents when faced with the check-mate, just flip over the board and poop all over the table, and pretend that this never took place.
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19-11-2014, 07:53 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 11:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." -Christopher Hitchens

Easy, "We have moral obligations".

I literally just said "We have moral obligations"

So, it can be said by nonbelievers.

Now let's consider something else. If you feel obligated by god to follow biblical law... And it turns out there is no god... Do you still have these "moral obligations"? Did you ever have them? I'd think so, since you still hold those ideals as being in good moral character. Of course, I might be going by the ridiculous common definitions of obligation; "the condition of being morally or legally bound to do something."

You obviously have your own definition, and are about to lay it out here, so we may better address your claim.
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19-11-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 08:27 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Are you implying the tired old disproven card of "without a god, we dont have morals" or the new one of "atheists just want to be their own god" or are you implying "without fear of a god, the world will fall apart into anarchy"....sadly the facts disprove all of that BS. Truly.

I can't speak for Tomasia, but the view that we are under no obligation to behave in any manner whatsoever, a view I hold, implies none of the above.
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19-11-2014, 08:15 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:53 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Easy, "We have moral obligations".

I literally just said "We have moral obligations"

So, it can be said by nonbelievers.

Now let's consider something else. If you feel obligated by god to follow biblical law... And it turns out there is no god... Do you still have these "moral obligations"? Did you ever have them? I'd think so, since you still hold those ideals as being in good moral character. Of course, I might be going by the ridiculous common definitions of obligation; "the condition of being morally or legally bound to do something."

You obviously have your own definition, and are about to lay it out here, so we may better address your claim.

I think the proper way to state "moral obligation" would be "an expectation of acceptable behavior". The acceptable behavior is what we are obligated to do to remain a part of society. There are lots of grey in that and some actions become acceptable given the correct set of circumstances.
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19-11-2014, 08:16 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A non-believer who claims to believe this would just be a closeted believer of some sort.

Note the highlighted part.

Quote:You claimed that having moral obligations is something that is inherently theistic in nature.

Nope, I never said inherently theistic, it could just as well be a closed deist, or pantheist, or some other form of woo, some sort of cosmic consciousness, etc....

And in order to show this to others, or to support this claim, I needed test subjects. Those that bravely chose to serve as my test subjects, have been shown to be confused, and in fact it was revealed than they did not have such obligation to begin with.

When i attempted to acquire more test subjects, to prove this point again everyone refused to participate, and acted like an angry mob trying to crucify me. But I don't mind the role of the martyr victim, since my lord has gone before me and done the same.

Quote:Just as how a civilian who enters a volunteer military takes on the obligations, moral and otherwise, proscribed and enforced by said military; regardless of religious faith or lack thereof. But that would require the half of a brain you apparently lack.

That's because you entered into an agreement with an actual other party, which had defined roles and obligations, that served as the basis for that agreement. Unfogged was under the impression that he made an agreement with another party, and that party was himself, and I'm sure at this point you can see the problem with this. Or do you not? Do i need to regurgitate my entire spew about both being the borrower and the lender?
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19-11-2014, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 08:25 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 08:15 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I think the proper way to state "moral obligation" would be "an expectation of acceptable behavior". The acceptable behavior is what we are obligated to do to remain a part of society. There are lots of grey in that and some actions become acceptable given the correct set of circumstances.

And these expectations are the expectations of the particular society one finds himself in correct?
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