Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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19-11-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 10:55 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I think both you and tomasia are nitpicking.

Nitpicking or not, I don't see any obligation to comply with the wishes of others. Any obligation to anyone or anything.
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19-11-2014, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 11:17 AM by TreeSapNest.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
I think something can be said of obligation that Dennett said of God: People believe in the belief in obligation. :-)
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19-11-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  that even your sense of obligation is in fact real and that obligation is to something higher than yourself,
Define "higher". Then demonstrate that there is actually something "higher". Then demonstrate that moral obligations come from this source alone.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  like the moral arc of the universe,
Define "Moral Arc", then demonstrate that the universe has an intrinsic moral arc as part of it's operations.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  and these obligation are made real just by the very nature of being human.
Demonstrate it.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  We fail in essence by not living up to what we were intended to live up to,
Demonstrate that there is something to live up to, demonstrate where it comes from, and then demonstrate how and why as an entire species we failed to live up to it. Lastly demonstrate why only humans have this obligation and not a fucking squirrel.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  an intention and purpose inherent to us from birth.
Demonstrate life has a purpose, outside of those based in biology, then demonstrate that this is intentional, and before you do all that demonstrate the causal agent responsible for both.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It could just be that these beliefs are all as imaginary as a tooth fairy, then we all are just back to square 1, that there are no moral obligations.
1.) They are considered to be nonexistent until you demonstrate that your claims are true. We don't believe every bit of made up bullshit from people like you who are clearly divorced from reality.
2.) You are engaged in a false dichotomy (Moral obligations come from where I say they do or they don't exist). We reject this limited thinking, and I personally invite you to fuck your own face.

(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can very much claim that these beliefs in the something beyond ourselves is imaginary, and false, but I'm not interested in arguing the point.
You are not interested in proving anything you actually say? We are aware. You are not interested in having a conversation you KNOW you can't win or even get as far as proving a single point? We are well aware. You have that reputation.
(19-11-2014 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Forcing me to argue this, against my own will, is tantamount to rape, and I will call the appropriate authorities if need be.

Now I'm convinced that you are a troll, because I find it hard to believe that any breathing human being could be that completely fucking stupid.

I tell you what, why don't you contact the police tell them some people on the internet made you have a conversation on a topic you know you can't win and that you would like to charge them, these people on the internet, with rape.
See how that goes you dumb mother fucker. Go on, I'm calling your bluff. Do it shit head.

Next making you actually back up your dumb cunt claims is in now way analogous to rape of any kind.
You have absolutely forfeited any claim to any morals AT ALL and FOR EVER if you think hard conversations that you don't wanna have are equal to rape. You are clearly morally bankrupt.

Lastly go get fisted by a lawnmower for even thinking about making that comparison you offensive, debased, coward.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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19-11-2014, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 11:23 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 10:49 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  You are such a lying piece of shit.

And you sir are an idiot. Let me show you exactly why you are an idiot:

(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 11:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." -Christopher Hitchens

Easy, "We have moral obligations".

Let me translate this for the plebeians.

Claim: We have moral obligation is an ethical statement or an action that cannot be performed by a non-believer.

To further explain this to you, the statement requires a belief in something higher than oneself, and it's folks that believe in some sort of higher forces, and transcendent powers above them, that I refer to as "believers of some sort", though they don't necessarily have to be theist.

Out of a sheer lack of imagination, you may be unable to see the connection between such a belief, and beliefs in higher powers, but it's not my desire to cure your dull mind. I can only lead a stubborn horse to water, but I can't make him drink, or in this case think.

Regardless, I setup an experiment, used willing test subjects, and demonstrated why this holds true, for atheist.

A believer of some sort can believe in moral obligations, because they believe they are obligated to some transcendent power, or perhaps even the image of God within them, or some laws written within the human heart, but an unbeliever recognizing that such things don't exist, cannot hold to a belief in moral obligations.
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19-11-2014, 11:27 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 11:14 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  1.) They are considered to be nonexistent until you demonstrate that your claims are true.


Well if you think moral obligations are non-existent, then I have no further argument. I'm only interested in those that believe they do exist.
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19-11-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 11:05 AM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 10:55 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I think both you and tomasia are nitpicking.

Nitpicking or not, I don't see any obligation to comply with the wishes of others. Any obligation to anyone or anything.

Obligation is not an absolute, it is an expectation, a promise, an agreement, etc. If you do not follow through there will be some manner of negative consequence.

You are obligate to do many things, you just do not realize it. In your group of friends there is an expectation of a certain range of behavior. If you stray out of that range you will be cast from the group. That is an obligation. Same for you and you parents, you and your employer, you and the store clerk, etc....
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19-11-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 11:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A believer of some sort can believe in moral obligations, because they believe they are obligated to some transcendent power, or perhaps even the image of God within them, or some laws written within the human heart, but an unbeliever recognizing that such things don't exist, cannot hold to a belief in moral obligations.

Obligation is a mystical being in and of itself that must be believed in, even in the presence of the higher power. Without which, all the higher power has is "I'll kick your ass if you don't comply." Or, "I'm just not going to talk to you anymore" :-)
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19-11-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 08:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 08:25 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Yes correct, different societies have different expectations of what is acceptable.

But you do understand that societies expectations are not really obligations either, as we can see when we think of those who go against the status quo. They are not acting as we expect them to, but they are not breaking any obligation.

But you do understand that biblical expectations are not really obligations either, as we can see when we think of those who go against the status quo. They are not acting as we expect them to, but they are not breaking any obligation.

Of course... I think that is complete rubbish, since "obligation" is simply: "the condition of being morally or legally bound to do something." , and morality is always open for discussion.
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19-11-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 11:28 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Obligation is not an absolute, it is an expectation, a promise, an agreement, etc. If you do not follow through there will be some manner of negative consequence.

The important thing here, is that expectations, are not necessarily the same as a promise or an agreement. We'll use your friends as an example.

You may have made a promise to your friends that you would not discuss your political views with them. It's by making this promise to them, that an obligation is created.

Imagine another scenario where you friends expect you to go along with them, perhaps their expectation is that your snort some coke with them, but you decline to. No obligation is broken, though you didn't live up to their expectations. In fact they may even stop being your friends, because you were such a square. But none of this matters, the point is you broke no obligation merely because you acted against their expectations of you.
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19-11-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 11:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 11:28 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Obligation is not an absolute, it is an expectation, a promise, an agreement, etc. If you do not follow through there will be some manner of negative consequence.

The important thing here, is that expectations, are not necessarily the same as a promise or an agreement. We'll use your friends as an example.

You may have made a promise to your friends that you would not discuss your political views with them. It's by making this promise to them, that an obligation is created.

Imagine another scenario where you friends expect you to go along with them, perhaps their expectation is that your snort some coke with them, but you decline to. No obligation is broken, though you didn't live up to their expectations. In fact they may even stop being your friends, because you were such a square. But none of this matters, the point is you broke no obligation merely because you acted against their expectations of you.

Who says a promise is an obligation? What is the obligation to keep a promise

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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