Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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19-11-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 12:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral obligations requires the existence of something equivalent to an ethereal deity.
A belief in moral obligation could easily be based on a belief in a magical unobservable deity.

No actual moral obligation is required. No actual deity is required.

All that is needed is an imagination and willingness to believe.
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19-11-2014, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 02:44 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Fun questions" from The Q:

Does prison population indicate that atheists are more moral than others or just less likely to be caught/more devious when committing crimes? (Okay, that's not really a question worth answering, but it is "fun"!) so let's try again:

If the atheists on this forum say that atheists are more moral/ethical than others, are they admitting that moral crimes deserve punishment/incarceration? You must be doing so because you are saying that immoral people are being imprisoned.

And saying that moral crimes deserve punishment opens a great door to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus died and rose to save people from punishment for moral crimes.

well to be honest, when someone pretends to be from some weird planet or whatever the "Q' thing was, read it before, I dont remember the specifics of your delusion, I have a hard time taking anything you posit as serious.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-11-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 12:58 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's purely an assertion. state why? Why is that the case?

Because there isn't any other way to establish them. If you think they can be established some other way, I would like to here it.

I've already stated it in my prior post. You've given no rational reasoning to why only a deity like power establishes them.

Via social contract theory... in the context of obligation you were describing, it all applies.

And there are atheists who believe in universal objective moral rights and wrongs, in their cases they equally apply.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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19-11-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 01:48 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Being obligated to do something does not mean that you can't also want to do it. Caring for your children because you love them and caring for them because you are morally obligated to and caring for them because you are legally obligated to are not mutually exclusive options. Theists may add caring for their children because they believe god told them that they are obligated to do so.

While theists believe they are obligated by God to do so, why do atheists believe they are obligated to care for them?

Though Tree cares for his children, he doesn't see this as an obligation. What is it that he is missing that you are in possession of, to recognize that he in fact is obligated to care?
Common sense.
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19-11-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
TreeSapNest and Tomasia, you guys are tiring and your "No body can make me do nothing" attitude smells of teen. While it has been interesting, I really have no desire to continue this discussion with you. Have a nice night.
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19-11-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:12 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I told you you had the burden of proof to demonstrate that claim is accurate. You have been shifting the goal posts, and obfuscating your responsibilities since then.

Sure, once you figure out how I am suppose to prove a negative. How am I suppose to prove that your momma so fat, that you can't even lift her?

How would I prove that moral obligations cannot be established without appealing to some sort of deity, a higher power, transcendent forces above one self, or some sort?

Uhm, let's see I can think of a few scenarios, how about we get atheists to attempt to establish moral obligations without in the end making an appeal to such things? Does that sound good to you?
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19-11-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ..... let's see I can think of a few scenarios, how about we get atheists to attempt to establish moral obligations without in the end making an appeal to such things? Does that sound good to you?

Indeed and has been done in quite a few secular societies successfully all around the world. Feel free to join in on any of them some time. Tongue

Much cheers to all.
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19-11-2014, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2014 02:50 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Fun questions" from The Q:

Does prison population indicate that atheists are more moral than others or just less likely to be caught/more devious when committing crimes? (Okay, that's not really a question worth answering, but it is "fun"!) so let's try again:

If the atheists on this forum say that atheists are more moral/ethical than others, are they admitting that moral crimes deserve punishment/incarceration? You must be doing so because you are saying that immoral people are being imprisoned.

And saying that moral crimes deserve punishment opens a great door to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus died and rose to save people from punishment for moral crimes.

What an utterly inaccurate characterization of what's being said about prison populations. It can't be that you're actually trying to mischaracterize our positions to us, the very people who said it, because what a fucking idiotic thing that would be to do. It won't trick us into thinking that we think something we don't think. It just shows you don't have a clue what it is you're pathetically flailing against.

So, since you not having a clue is the most generous interpretation possible, allow me to clarify.

In this thread, when I and I suspect others made these observations about incarceration rates, we weren't examining questions about what SHOULD be true. We are examining questions about what IS true.

SHOULD atheists be more moral in their behavior than Christians, or vice versa, or maybe they should be equally moral? NOT BEING ADDRESSED HERE. (Answer: The ideal is that everyone should be equally, perfectly moral. Not realistic, but "should" questions rarely are. Also, a different conversation than this one.)

ARE they? That's the question we're trying to answer here. We are doing so in response to an oft-asserted, never-proven claim commonly advanced by the Christian community's most vocal spokespeople that Christianity guides Christians to moral behavior, and that atheism is devoid of morality.

We could, and often do, address this on a theoretical level of what the passages actually say to do and whether this is moral behavior, or whether behaving oneself in response to some sort of celestial extortion is really good character.

But here, we approach the question of whether Christianity leads to moral behavior from a different direction. Empricism. Are Christians more moral than atheists? The proof is in the pudding. We actually have DATA on how often atheists and Christians commit acts of theft, rape, and murder. That data is in the incarceration and conviction rates. Rather than arguing over what we think is maybe likely, like a hand-waving "who would win in a fight between these two comic book characters" type argument, we can actually check the reality of it.

And the reality of it is that Christians are more likely to commit each of these acts than atheists.

That's the question we're looking at the prison data to answer. Not "Should moral infractions be punished?" Why the hell would we be looking at prison data for that? That would just tell us that they ARE being punished, not whether they should be.

It's like testing a pharmaceutical. How much better does one fair under this drug than under a placebo? With all its pretenses and lovely little "ask your doctor about" ads claiming that it will lead people to be better, how does the "drug" of Christianity actually compare to the "placebo" of atheism?

Answer, according to the data: Christianity makes people MORE likely to steal, rape, and murder. Not less. That's not just the other side saying it. That's hard statistics saying it.

This is not a "should" question. We're not asking, should Christianity do this? We're asking, DOES Christianity do this? And the answer is, it does.

I find it particularly telling, when faced with this shortcoming of your religion, that your response was not, "gee, there's a major problem going on here, how do I fix it and help my fellow believers be better people, and help Christianity actually make good on its promise of moral guidance?" No, your response was to do a smarmy apologetic public relations marketing tap dance, rather than do anything of substance. I suspect that makes you part of the problem.

So, getting on to the irrelevant "should" questions. SHOULD moral infractions... however we define these things... be punished? I say -- and this is me speaking for myself here, not the atheist community at large -- not in and of their own right. There is room for a penalty system, but its goal should be the preemptive elimination of harms to society, not the after-the-fact punishment of immorality. It's not as if punishing it undoes it. In so far as a penalty system can serve as a deterrent and prevent future social harms, then yes, punish away, to the degree that makes sense for deterrence. But no further.

Does this open the door to Jesus? Well, that's begging the question of whether there IS a Jesus and whether he has some sort of supernatural power to forgive immorality on some abstract, supernatural level. Note that this is an IS question, not a SHOULD question. Argue that we SHOULD have that and that we would want to have that all you want, and I can argue back, but that will get us no closer to answering whether it IS true. I'd question the logic, or lack thereof, of saying that "there should be punishment for crimes" leads to "there should be a way of getting pardon for those punishments". I mean, it seems like a contradiction. One moment you're saying people should be punished, and next you're contradicting that by saying that there should be a way out of being punished. But whatever. What's most telling here is that opening the door to Jesus, at least in terms of belief and becoming a Christian.... and this is back to an IS question, backed up by data... makes things WORSE for society and the people in it, not better. (Argue if you want that it'll be better for them in the afterlife, but you won't have data for it.)

The only halfway reasonable objection you raise is the one you promptly backed out of: whether the data is good data. You don't actually make an argument that it isn't good data, you just kinda invoke the ghost of an objection and promptly run away from it. But okay, let's ask the question. Not because you raise it, but because it's a good question. Is there something biasing the data, such as disparate conviction rates for two people who commit similar crimes, that might throw off these numbers? Several possibilities come to mind. For example, open atheists are demographically more likely to be white, and blacks are more likely to be convicted of crimes than whites are in this country. Atheists are more likely to be higher on the economic ladder, and poverty leads to higher chance of incarceration. On the other hand, juries are more likely to have pro-Christian members than pro-atheist members, atheists are less likely to get lovely little character testimonies from their pastors, are less likely to have priests working to secure their parole based on good behavior and how they've turned their lives around, et cetera. For example, a recent story looked into the case of an atheist who was given a choice between attending a faith-based drug treatment program or going to prison, chose the program, got kicked OUT of the program for, well, being an atheist, and got sent to prison anyway. So as a preliminary does-this-make-sense test, I suspect there's factors and biases pulling the data in BOTH directions. There usually is, for almost any data you care to name. There's no such thing as perfect data, and we don't actually have omniscient statistics of who commits crimes when they DON'T get convicted. We should try to correct for this and get better data, even if it's not perfect data and never can be.

But what there ISN'T anywhere to be found here in the data we have so far, the best data we presently have available to us, is the slightest hint that Christianity leads people to more moral behavior. There's no huge swell of statistical indicators that Christians behave any better than non-Christians, not a hint of moral guidance from a holy book or a higher power having any positive impact in reality. If anything, it seems to do the opposite.
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19-11-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 02:12 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I told you you had the burden of proof to demonstrate that claim is accurate. You have been shifting the goal posts, and obfuscating your responsibilities since then.

Sure, once you figure out how I am suppose to prove a negative. How am I suppose to prove that your momma so fat, that you can't even lift her?

How would I prove that moral obligations cannot be established without appealing to some sort of deity, a higher power, transcendent forces above one self, or some sort?

Uhm, let's see I can think of a few scenarios, how about we get atheists to attempt to establish moral obligations without in the end making an appeal to such things? Does that sound good to you?

It is the great pumpkin that created morals, yes, a few thousand years ago the great pumpkin rose high into the sky, and shit pumpkin pie filling all over creation, and everyone who ate the pie filling, begat morals. That is how it happened.

That scenario is no more ridiculous than you positing that an invisible sky genie blew into a handful of dirt and created man, after creating hundreds of billions of planets until he got one just right of course, Rolleyes then he gave them choice and morals, and immediately a moral challenge, don't eat the magical apple *key dramatic music* dunh dunh dunh uhoh, the evil woman ate the apple, now man is doomed forever!

Really, how can you think that and not just bust out laughing, throw the bible in the trash where it belongs and live your life in the REAL world...not the made up matrix transcendental one with ZERO evidence...oh thats right, it takes "faith"...you ain't shitting, believing that nonsense sure does take faith, and a healthy serving of gullibility, low IQ and delusion. Nice job....winner.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-11-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:34 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Common sense.

That common sense is the serpent hiding in the bush.
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