Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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19-11-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:39 PM)wazzel Wrote:  TreeSapNest and Tomasia, you guys are tiring and your "No body can make me do nothing" attitude smells of teen. While it has been interesting, I really have no desire to continue this discussion with you. Have a nice night.

There is more thought in life than that of rebellious teens. For instance, what you mistake for common sense is in fact common convention. Realizing there are not obligations is mearly looking past those conventions.
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19-11-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Does prison population indicate that atheists are more moral than others or just less likely to be caught/more devious when committing crimes?
It probably indicates that atheists (in general) are more law abiding.
It could be because religious organisation generally target the poor and uneducated. These are people more likely to need to steal to survive or they feel underdone in comparison to others in society.
Or
It could be that atheists focus on the real tangible laws of the land where the theists focus on their imagined god's laws and feel they can be forgiven if they perform a special magical ritual i.e. hail mary's.

(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If the atheists on this forum say that atheists are more moral/ethical than others, are they admitting that moral crimes deserve punishment/incarceration?
Some atheists think this way, some don't. I don't.

(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You must be doing so because you are saying that immoral people are being imprisoned.

And saying that moral crimes deserve punishment opens a great door to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus died and rose to save people from punishment for moral crimes.
So as a Christian do you think moral crimes have already been paid for? Thus nobody should be put in prison for moral crimes? Is this your stance?
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19-11-2014, 02:56 PM
Re: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
I must have missed the "spankings" being given out. I've read this thread a couple times. Maybe I was sleeping.
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19-11-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

Agreed, assuming "holy and righteous" involves accepting Jesus as your savior more than it means being nice.
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19-11-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:56 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  I must have missed the "spankings" being given out. I've read this thread a couple times. Maybe I was sleeping.

I missed the spanking? Unsure awwww

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-11-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:49 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...not the made up matrix transcendental one with ZERO evidence...oh thats right, it takes "faith"...

Is there zero evidence for moral obligations? Does it require faith to believe in them?
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19-11-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 02:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 02:34 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Common sense.

That common sense is the serpent hiding in the bush.

Laugh out load You bloody Christians Big Grin I love you. You come out with these absolute *gems* sometimes. You're so scared of your own reasoning abilities that you invent these crazy little sayings to convince yourself *not to believe what your own brain is telling you* Big Grin

Fuck I'm gonna laugh all night... this is awesome.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-11-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 01:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Fun questions" from The Q:

Jesus died and rose to save people from punishment for moral crimes.

ah yes, the incarnation and atonement BS. Here let me help you "Q".

The relationship between incarnation and atonement

To contemplate the relationship between incarnation and atonement, with special emphasis on Anselm’s idea of satisfaction, we must first look at what incarnation and atonement means to those of the Christian faith. Incarnation is continual in that our redemption depends on the reality that the eternal son of God came to us as a man. If he did not come fully down, then we are not fully saved (Dawson 5-6). Since Jesus became what we are, accepting our very humanity and God crossed the gap between human and deity, and he overcame our sin and came to live on our behalf. He chose to leave a faithful life that was beyond our capacity, but required by the Father.

The very obedience of Jesus led him to die on the cross as penalty for human sin. Not only did he die for us, but he gave us new life for salvation, and salvation depends on our continuing union with him. The Incarnation is basically a fundamental theological teaching of Christianity, based on its understanding of the New Testament. The Incarnation represents the Christian belief that Jesus, who is the second part of the triune, God, took on a human body and became both man and deity. This can be seen in the Bible in John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” (Bible – King James version – John). The Christians worldview is rooted in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the belief that Jesus is God in human in one person (Mueller 141).

Atonement is a theological theory which describes human being’s reconciliation with God. This atonement is basically the forgiveness of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus. This voluntary sacrifice by Jesus made possible the reconciliation between man and God. “God so loved the world, and gave his only begotten son” (Bible – King James version – John 3:16). This Scripture verse highlights the source of atonement by the very provision of God’s love. It is the love of God the father that Paul has in view when he speaks of him who “spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all” (Bible – King James version – Romans 8:32). Surely God could have saved man by other means then allowing his only son to die, since God is all-powerful, other ways of forgiving sin were available to him. Some view the very necessity of his great self-sacrifice magnified his glory and enhanced the precise character of the salvation bestowed (Murray 12). Salvation requires not only the forgiveness of sin but also justification. Sin is the contradiction of God he must react against it with holy wrath demonstration of Christ on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God. The very nature of the atonement requires that it contains obedience, sacrifice, propitiation, reconciliation and redemption.

Obedience is a compilation of motive, purpose, direction and intention, of which Christ was the epitome of obedience and discharge of God’s will in its increasing demands leading up to his inevitable sacrificial death. Sacrifice is the removal of sin liability via the transference of liability itself. Propitiation; to pacify, and Christ’s propitiation to God was to deal with the wrath so that those loved would no longer be the objects of wrath, and God’s love would be eternal. Reconciliation is concerned with our alienation from God, and the inherent need to have that alienation removed. Redemption by Jesus’ blood, “Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Bible – King James version – revelations 5:9).

This atonement can be broken down into various theories, one of which is the satisfaction theory of atonement, developed by Anselm of Canterbury (1033 – 1109). Anselm posited that sin unbalanced the order of justice in the universe. Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done in order to restore the balance. For example, a sin is incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance (Albl 271). The work of Christ is to repair the breach human sin introduced into the relationship between humanity and God. Anselm argued in Cur Deus Homo that this work can be accomplished only by a God-man; one person equally divine and human. This doctrine of Christ is commonly called “Chalcedonian Christology” because it was created by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 CE (Visser 213).

One cannot explain the incarnation by appeal to any supposed obligation on God’s part to respect the devil’s rights over humanity. Since the devil had no such rights, so it appears that God would not have been acting unjustly if he had just delivered human beings the power of the devil by fiat. What reason did God have to redeemed mankind and the way he did, given that he was not under any obligation to do so? Anselm suggests that since we know God’s will is never irrational, we can be confident that God had some reason for doing what he did, even if we do not see or understand what the reason is (Visser 214).

Anselm believed he could prove, by unavoidable logical steps, that Christ was removed from the case, as if there had never existed anything to do with him, is it possible that without him mankind could have been saved (Anselm 261 – 262). A foundation of Christianity is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins (Bible – King James version –1 Cor 15:3). In this way he fulfilled the old covenant sacrificial system, reconciled us to God, and changed our lives forever. This is the doctrine of the atonement (Mattison 1). At this point the author makes a faith claim, or commonly known as a knowledge claim, by positing “its reality is not in dispute”. I must interject here the whole subject is in dispute, and has been the center of debate for centuries. The author’s mere assertion in a knowledge claim that the atonement “reality” is not in dispute does not make it true. It does however assert that the atonement theory is an essential foundation of Christian religious belief. The author goes on to say, “we know that the atonement works; but how it works is not as clear.” Again, a knowledge claim is made; we have zero proof that the atonement works, at best it is a comforting theory for the faithful to cling to in order to validate their faith to themselves.

“The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Bible –King James version – Matthew 20:28). The statement suggests that Jesus gave his life as an extreme expression of love for mankind. Iranaeus of Lyons argued that Jesus was paid as the ransom to the devil free people’s souls. This view was known as the ransom or classic theory. The ransom theory was the dominant theological theory for centuries until dismantled by Anselm of Canterbury. He pointed out that this theory empowered the devil too much, and he posited that Jesus’s life was ransom paid to God, not the devil. Anselm viewed sin as dishonorable conduct that went against God. Since God cannot ignore this conduct, a debt or “satisfaction” is required. Since mankind is unable to make the requisite level of satisfaction, God became human to do it on our behalf. Thus, Jesus was payment to God, not the devil. But since Jesus was part of the triune god, did god merely appease himself?

The church leaders developed doctrine to reflect Jesus Christ’s fulfilling of God’s will through active obedience, vice his passive obedience through death. Basically, God requires mankind to obey and live a life of perpetual obedience (Mattison 1). This endless cycle of perpetual intellectual and spiritual slavery upon birth, where we continuously strive to bow and scrape in deference to our alleged creator’s self-centered will and ego, is hardly what a thinking person would presume a deity of such universe and life creating power, would be so obsessed with. What kind of immature supreme being would create all of this, create life, destroy life, send part of his own “body” down in the form of a man through immaculate conception, so he can die on our behalf to satisfy God’s ego requirement for sacrifice. I don’t purport to understand the consciousness of this alleged magical creature, but it is hard to conceive such childish, disingenuous manipulation of life for the entertainment of itself. This dramatic, over thought, contrite, anthropocentric theory must be the creation of man’s imagination. How could it be anything else?

In summary, this complex, dramatic Christian theological concept is obviously a fabrication of much thought, and introspective philosophy. Perhaps they could have put all that time and effort into something more constructive. Creating a subservient, subjugative crutch for people with low mental resilience, apparent inability to use reason and logic to comprehend the world around them, and wild imaginations seems unnecessary. In my opinion, religion and faith block the believer’s ability to utilize appropriate epistemological methods to process and gain knowledge. As apparent by the fact that a recent study showed that one fourth of America believed the sun revolved around the earth. This is the perfect example of how religious thought handicaps a person’s ability to learn.


Works Cited:

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-11-2014, 03:13 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 03:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 02:49 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...not the made up matrix transcendental one with ZERO evidence...oh thats right, it takes "faith"...

Is there zero evidence for moral obligations? Does it require faith to believe in them?

There is substantial evidence in sociology of established societal norms, expected standards of co-existence, that were developed and established long before religion reared its ugly head. You see, you have it backwards, religion didn't give us morals, morals already existed, developed through time by co-existing peacefully in tribes, villages, towns and eventually cities. Religion was developed by the empowered to control and pacify the ignorant, uneducated work force, gotta give them something to focus on in their shitty hungry, tired lives...."ah...worry not my brethren, for if you have faith in the great pumkin, once you die, all your pains and hunger will vanish, and you will live eternity in heaven".....then religion incorporated the established societal norms like...dont kill, dont steal etc into the tenets of the faith...the "commandments"..oddd the commandments from the great pumpkin didnt discuss things like rape and slavery Consider

think....evolve

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-11-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(19-11-2014 03:01 PM)morondog Wrote:  You're so scared of your own reasoning abilities that you invent these crazy little sayings to convince yourself *not to believe what your own brain is telling you* Big Grin

Ah, you missed it.

I do believe what my brain is telling me. In fact I believe we do have moral obligations, and in fact that this is just common sense. In fact I believe just by being human, that I have intrinsic moral purpose and obligation, that I am to love my neighbor as myself, care for the widow and the orphan, to pursue justice, to stand for what is right, to come to the aid of those who suffer, or in other words to love, in order to be fully and meaningfully alive. And that when I fail to live up to this, is when I fail in my humanity.

I believe these obligations are rooted in a deeper reality, existing at the core of our inner beings, not to be discarded but recognized. Glimpses of what it means to be complete, to be fully and profoundly human and to participate in a life more meaningful than any other competing sense of life.

And this is all just common sense.
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