Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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20-11-2014, 06:41 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

Except that, no, no it's not.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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20-11-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 05:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I care about how their response impacts me. I don't care about their preferences or their moral beliefs.

And they care how your response affects them.

Hence, we get obligation. We are each obliged to not cause harm to others and we codify that in laws - laws which we are obliged to obey.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-11-2014, 10:00 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2014 10:36 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hence, we get obligation. We are each obliged to not cause harm to others and we codify that in laws - laws which we are obliged to obey.
Disagree.
I am under no universal obligation not to cause harm to others.
Sure there is a legal obligation, if I break law then the police will come after me.
I am under duress and coerced to conform to the law. I conform because I know otherwise I will be locked up.

We cannot codify universal obligation into law because there is no universal obligation with which to base it on.

I do not accept that there is any moral obligation on me.

I do however understand that my actions might impact others and that others might react in a way that impacts me. My actions are moderated not only by law, but also by my own understanding of how others might react to me. A great example of this is watching children in the playground, or in Kindy. My own child for example went to Kindy, tried to snatch a toy, and got a pair of plastic scissors scraped on her face by the kid she snatched from. A great life lesson, action->reaction snatching toy does not necessarily result in benefit to me.
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20-11-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 10:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hence, we get obligation. We are each obliged to not cause harm to others and we codify that in laws - laws which we are obliged to obey.
Disagree.
I am under no universal obligation not to cause harm to others.
Sure there is a legal obligation, if I break law then the police will come after me.
I am under duress and coerced to conform to the law. I conform because I know otherwise I will be locked up.

We cannot codify universal obligation into law because there is no universal obligation with which to base it on.

I do not accept that there is any moral obligation on me.

I do however understand that my actions might impact others and that others might react in a way that impacts me. My actions are moderated not only by law, but also by my own understanding of how others might react to me. A great example of this is watching children in the playground, or in Kindy. My own child for example went to Kindy, tried to snatch a toy, and got a pair of plastic scissors scraped on her face by the kid she snatched from. A great life lesson, action->reaction snatching toy does not necessarily result in benefit to me.

Only you have inserted this "universal" essence to the obligation. Nowhere in this thread is a term indicating a quality like that used prior to you bringing it up. You're contrasting a point not made by anyone. Whenever morality is the topic, you seem to want to steer definitions and ideas in ways others weren't using them.

Just like before with ought and expectations.. If I think you ought to give the guy you saw leave his wallet on the counter his wallet back.. it doesn't mean I expect you to do or expect you will do it.

Do you think you follow suit by following the social order in order to maintain the social order in a general sense? In that manner, you're following moral obligations of a social contract type of society. You can deny you have impact in this moral chain of systems, but denial doesn't make something not occurring.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-11-2014, 12:08 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 10:47 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you think you follow suit by following the social order in order to maintain the social order in a general sense?
No that is not why I follow suit.
I obey laws because I don't want to go to prison.
I obey some social rules because I want some people to trust me.
I am not doing anything out of <unqualified> obligation.
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21-11-2014, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2014 07:29 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  In the real world, we are obligated to follow the rules of society or risk various levels of opprobrium.
And, yes, you had no choice to be born into the society in which you were, or to be born at all. Tough shit.

Or in other words, in the real world there are laws, such as don't litter, or park in a place longer then two hours, don't buy drugs, or use them, or you'll risk various penalties such as fees, and prison time.

But I'm guessing the rules you have in mind are not just legal requirements? If so can you name an obligation, a rule that all individuals in a society have, even though no legal obligation exists?

And is your argument for these rules, that it's the fact that there are consequences that make them rules?
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21-11-2014, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2014 07:21 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 04:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You appear to have misunderstood me - and quite thoroughly, at that.

Saying "ought" expresses, fundamentally, a preference. This is not the same as an expectation. Do you understand the difference?

Ah, here lies the rub.

An ought is a duty, not a preference.

To speak of ought as a preference, would be no different than to speak of laws as a preference, i.e there should be a law banning men from wearing skinny jeans. It's the difference between saying i wish we had moral obligations, and believing we actually do have moral obligations. It's the difference between wishing we were bound to certain principles, and believing that we are in fact bound to these certain principles.

The difference between wishing there was a law banning men from wearing skinny jeans, and believing there is in fact a law banning men from wearing skinny jeans. The difference between wishing that we had a obligation to take care of the poor, and believing that we all have this obligation.

You can desire that we have moral obligations all you want, but to believe that we have them is just wishful thinking.
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21-11-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
Also for those who persists in believing we have moral obligations, do you believe it would be worrying if humanity believed they didn't? Or in other words do you think there are any real ramifications for believing that moral obligations do not exist?

Do you think that lacking belief in their existence, makes it easier to transgress them? Is that why those who don't believe in them, are not just wrong in your view, but seem to be troubling?
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21-11-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 10:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hence, we get obligation. We are each obliged to not cause harm to others and we codify that in laws - laws which we are obliged to obey.
Disagree.
I am under no universal obligation not to cause harm to others.
Sure there is a legal obligation, if I break law then the police will come after me.
I am under duress and coerced to conform to the law. I conform because I know otherwise I will be locked up.

We cannot codify universal obligation into law because there is no universal obligation with which to base it on.

I do not accept that there is any moral obligation on me.

I do however understand that my actions might impact others and that others might react in a way that impacts me. My actions are moderated not only by law, but also by my own understanding of how others might react to me. A great example of this is watching children in the playground, or in Kindy. My own child for example went to Kindy, tried to snatch a toy, and got a pair of plastic scissors scraped on her face by the kid she snatched from. A great life lesson, action->reaction snatching toy does not necessarily result in benefit to me.

I have not claimed anything about 'universal' or 'moral' obligation, simply obligation.

You are obligated to follow the rules, otherwise you suffer consequences.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
Most of my actions are done through desire and need. Examining consequences will also push me toward action or hold me in place with no action or somewhere in between.

What obligations do I have right now. I have an obligation to pay rent. I feel a personal obligation to be a better father to my son than my father was to me. I feel an obligation to stand up and say to someone "Hey, what you're doing is wrong." If I feel it's wrong.

I have a personal obligation to help when I can.
I may not always act in the way that I would like, but I do feel the need to help others.

Growing up we are taught to behave a certain way. Our parents expect us to act right and it turn that creates an obligation in us to behave as they wish, not because they wish it, but because of the reasons they gave for why you should behave this way.

"You get a job, work hard, pay your bills and treat others with respect. "

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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