Morals, Christianity, Atheism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-11-2014, 07:37 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Also for those who persists in believing we have moral obligations, do you believe it would be worrying if humanity believed they didn't? Or in other words do you think there are any real ramifications for believing that moral obligations do not exist?

Do you think that lacking belief in their existence, makes it easier to transgress them? Is that why those who don't believe in them, are not just wrong in your view, but seem to be troubling?

I think it's worrying that you don't know how to use plural verbs with plural subjects, yet somehow think you're up to a discussion with educated adults.
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  In the real world, we are obligated to follow the rules of society or risk various levels of opprobrium.
And, yes, you had no choice to be born into the society in which you were, or to be born at all. Tough shit.

Or in other words, in the real world there are laws, such as don't litter, or park in a place longer then two hours, don't buy drugs, or use them, or you'll risk various penalties such as fees, and prison time.

But I'm guessing the rules you have in mind are not just legal requirements? If so can you name an obligation, a rule that all individuals in a society have, even though no legal obligation exists?

And is your argument for these rules, that it's the fact that there are consequences that make them rules?

There are myriad rules, customs, and mores in any society - and they differ from society to society.

If there are no negative consequences for not doing something, it's hard to imagine how that thing is an obligation. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(20-11-2014 01:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  He - and I suspect that you are well aware of this - is referring to an obligation to himself, based on his own character and convictions.

Let's give you a simple though experiment, involving three different fathers.

Father A, cares for his children, but doesn't believe he has a moral obligation to care for them.

Father B, cares for his children as well, but wishes there was a moral obligation to care of them, but believes he does not have such an obligation.

And Father C, also cares for his children just like the other two fathers, but believes he has a moral obligation to care for them as well.

Do you believe that all three fathers are correct?

If by chance you don't think so, would it be fathers A and B who don't recognize some truth that father C does? Or would it be father C who doesn't recognize some truth that fathers A and B do?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you think that lacking belief in their existence, makes it easier to transgress them?

If anything, societies that are less religious have lower rates of "transgressions" so it may be that it is easier to ignore obligations that you are told that you have but haven't actually reasoned out for yourself. Even if you could demonstrate your unproven assertion that moral obligations require a higher power or a "deeper reality", it also appears to require the ability to understand WHY they are, in fact, moral obligations before they become compelling. That can be done without any reference to a deity of any sort making the whole claim pointless. No god is needed and no god has been shown to exist; Ockham's razor comes down squarely on the side of moral obligations existing without gods.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 01:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  He - and I suspect that you are well aware of this - is referring to an obligation to himself, based on his own character and convictions.

Let's give you a simple though experiment, involving three different fathers.

Father A, cares for his children, but doesn't believe he has a moral obligation to care for them.

Father B, cares for his children as well, but wishes there was a moral obligation to care of them, but believes he does not have such an obligation.

And Father C, also cares for his children just like the other two fathers, but believes he has a moral obligation to care for them as well.

Do you believe that all three fathers are correct?

If by chance you don't think so, would it be fathers A and B who don't recognize some truth that father C does? Or would it be father C who doesn't recognize some truth that fathers A and B do?

Who gives a shit ? The children are cared for.
It's not "truth". You have not demonstrated that, or even defined it. Nice try.
There is no "correct".
Every human has a complex set of motivations which they may or may not be able to correctly verbalize, which may or may not correctly correspond to what is going on in their brains. So what, Simple Minded One ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
21-11-2014, 07:53 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:36 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  What obligations do I have right now. I have an obligation to pay rent.

Sure, you can say that, because you signed a lease agreement with your landlord, in which you agreed to the terms of that contract, which stipulated that you pay your rent every month. So you can say you have a contractual obligation.


Quote:I feel a personal obligation to be a better father to my son than my father was to me.

What would be the difference between believing you having an obligation to do this, and merely hoping/wishing/desiring to be a better father to your son than your father was? Did your father also have a moral obligation to take care of you better than how he did? Or does this obligation exist only for yourself?

Quote: not because they wish it, but because of the reasons they gave for why you should behave this way.

Would these "reasons" merely be consequences, ramifications for not behaving in certain ways?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2014 08:53 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 07:45 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-11-2014 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you think that lacking belief in their existence, makes it easier to transgress them?

If anything, societies that are less religious have lower rates of "transgressions" so it may be that it is easier to ignore obligations that you are told that you have but haven't actually reasoned out for yourself. Even if you could demonstrate your unproven assertion that moral obligations require a higher power or a "deeper reality", it also appears to require the ability to understand WHY they are, in fact, moral obligations before they become compelling. That can be done without any reference to a deity of any sort making the whole claim pointless. No god is needed and no god has been shown to exist; Ockham's razor comes down squarely on the side of moral obligations existing without gods.

But I don't think you're answering my questions, which was in regard to your belief in the existence of moral obligations, not necessarily from a religious perspective.

You care for your children, but you also believe you have an obligation to care for them. Let's assume everyone in your community believed this too, in the same way you do.

Let's assume we have another community occupied by folks like treesap, who also care for their children, but do not believe that they have an obligation to do so.

Do you think one community would be better off than the other? Do you think one would prosper and have a better chance of survival than the other?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 08:08 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-11-2014 07:45 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If anything, societies that are less religious have lower rates of "transgressions" so it may be that it is easier to ignore obligations that you are told that you have but haven't actually reasoned out for yourself. Even if you could demonstrate your unproven assertion that moral obligations require a higher power or a "deeper reality", it also appears to require the ability to understand WHY they are, in fact, moral obligations before they become compelling. That can be done without any reference to a deity of any sort making the whole claim pointless. No god is needed and no god has been shown to exist; Ockham's razor comes down squarely on the side of moral obligations existing without gods.

But I don't think you're answering my questions, which was in regards* to your belief in the existence of moral obligations, not necessarily from a religious perspective.

You care for your children, but you also believe you have an obligation to care for them. Let's assume everyone in your community believed this too, in the same way you do.

Let's assume we have another community occupied by folks like treesap, who also care for their children, but do not believe that they have an obligation to do so.

Do you think one community would be better off than the other? Do you think one would prosper and have a better chance of survival than the other?


*"in regard", (not "in regards")

As long as the children are taken care of, the complex motivations of the caregivers, (no matter how they verbalize them) are irrelevant.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 08:54 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 08:08 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  *"in regard", (not "in regards")

Thank you, I never knew.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(21-11-2014 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-11-2014 08:08 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  *"in regard", (not "in regards")

Thank you, I never knew.

None of the points about definitions, or how you know what you think you presume to know about outcomes have been addressed.

There might be a way to test your theories. One could look at and try to compare outcomes from communities which are predominantly Fundie Christian self-identified, and communities in which parents are non-believers and see if the outcomes are any different. As far as I know, societies (for example in Northern Europe) which have freed themselves from enslavement to religious indoctrination are no worse off, (and in fact may be far better off) than societies that remain enslaved to religious nonsense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: