Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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18-11-2014, 06:44 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 06:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 06:12 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I'm the asshole who made jokes about Need For Speed coming to a crashing halt this year and I'm still more qualified than you on such a subject, because at least I admit it.

Need For Speed jokes make you an asshole? Huh

Or did you mean Fast & Furious after the untimely accidental death of the series lead actor Paul Walker? Consider

Yes; that's the one.

But let's be honest, Need for Speed has been crashing for along time anyway but the fans wont admit it, so technically I'm still correct.

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18-11-2014, 06:55 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 06:44 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 06:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Need For Speed jokes make you an asshole? Huh

Or did you mean Fast & Furious after the untimely accidental death of the series lead actor Paul Walker? Consider

Yes; that's the one.

But let's be honest, Need for Speed has been crashing for along time anyway but the fans wont admit it, so technically I'm still correct.

Well there was a Need for Speed movie, and it was absolute shit.





But I still have a soft spot for the Fast & Furious movies, and even some of the Need for Speed games were good. Mainly Underground 2 before they drove that series into the ground, and both of the SHIFT racing simulation installments.




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18-11-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

Your concepts are subsets of ours. Morals and ethics are essentially codes, mindsets, tendencies, or schema towards "good" behavior, with "good" being a fill-in-the-blank value which can be hotly debated. For example, a humanist will define good behavior as that which is kind towards people, keeps them from harm, and helps them. Meanwhile, a nationalist patriot might define "good" behavior as that which promotes and advances their particular nation's military strength and ventures. These are both frameworks of morals and ethics, but differ in the defining value.

Christian notions of "holiness" and "righteousness" are basically types of morals, with the values of "be like what we think God wants us to be" and "do what we think God wants us to do" filling in the blanks. (Of course, Christians will disagree on what God wants. Because it's Christendom.)

Obviously, "more moral" is difficult to judge with different criteria for what counts as moral. But we can agree on some points of overlap and look at those. For example, most atheists and most Christians will agree that theft, murder, and rape are morally wrong (even if rape's not actually ruled out in the Bible... then again, neither is abortion and we see how that plays out).

And then we check conviction rates and see, wow, lookatthat, Christians are statistically more likely to commit theft, murder, and rape than atheists. And we can look abroad and see, wow, lookatthat, countries with larger proportions of atheists (Norway, Denmark, etc) have MUCH lower rates of these crimes than countries with large numbers of Christians (United States, Mexico, etc), especially when you correct for government type (eg, comparing liberal democracies to liberal democracies). So not only are atheists less likely to commit these crimes, they're also better at building societies where these crimes don't happen.

So even with a Christian notion of righteousness, there's support for the claim that atheists do it better.

But all that's beside the point. I honestly don't give a damn about judging Christians by Christian standards, and I'm under no obligation to do so. I'll judge them by the same standard I judge everyone else. And then, finding them on average less moral and ethical than atheists (and with good reasons for doing so), I will then listen to you argue that yeah, but that's not what the Bible's saying for Christians to be, and I'll care just enough to laugh harshly at you spinning how being moral and ethical isn't important.

Also, I'll tape it and distribute it as an example of how some Christians approach morality. Because we hardly ever hear Christians be honest enough to admit that morality and ethics aren't important in a Biblical world view.

... or, wait, ARE they important? Then why the hell is this thread here?
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18-11-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 07:46 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Morals and ethics are essentially codes, mindsets, tendencies, or schema towards "good" behavior, with "good" being a fill-in-the-blank value which can be hotly debated. For example, a humanist will define good behavior as that which is kind towards people, keeps them from harm, and helps them. Meanwhile, a nationalist patriot might define "good" behavior as that which promotes and advances their particular nation's military strength and ventures. These are both frameworks of morals and ethics, but differ in the defining value.

I absolutely agree, but I would also add that these morals really only exist as societal constructs. Societies deem the appropriate moral standards and then enforce those. You can agree with the standards or not, but the morality is only truly objective to the extent that people have agreed to be a part of the society.

The objection to this is usually that, "If x happened to you, you would feel you had been wronged. Therefore, you know that this is objectively immoral." For example, if a teacher gave a student a failing grade because he didn't like the student's color of shoes, the student would have every right to feel (objectively) wronged. However, in a case such as this, the student would have every right to expect a fair grade based on the standards of the educational institution, itself--just from being a part of that 'society.'

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18-11-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
"Righteousness" "Religiosity" and being "Holy" are all terms coined by the religious in order to justify and moralize immoral actions.

Put "holy" in front of "war" and it apparently becomes morally justifiable without any extensive justification.

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18-11-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 07:46 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Morals and ethics are essentially codes, mindsets, tendencies, or schema towards "good" behavior, with "good" being a fill-in-the-blank value which can be hotly debated. For example, a humanist will define good behavior as that which is kind towards people, keeps them from harm, and helps them. Meanwhile, a nationalist patriot might define "good" behavior as that which promotes and advances their particular nation's military strength and ventures. These are both frameworks of morals and ethics, but differ in the defining value.

I absolutely agree, but I would also add that these morals really only exist as societal constructs. Societies deem the appropriate moral standards and then enforce those. You can agree with the standards or not, but the morality is only truly objective to the extent that people have agreed to be a part of the society.

The objection to this is usually that, "If x happened to you, you would feel you had been wronged. Therefore, you know that this is objectively immoral." For example, if a teacher gave a student a failing grade because he didn't like the student's color of shoes, the student would have every right to feel (objectively) wronged. However, in a case such as this, the student would have every right to expect a fair grade based on the standards of the educational institution, itself--just from being a part of that 'society.'

I don't know that I would quite phrase it like that. What we call moral impulses have a reliable neurological basis and fall into consistent patterns; those exist regardless.

Where I would agree with you is that without a communal, social framework to act on standards they're much less meaningful.
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18-11-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

My thoughts?

1.) Thread and forum are different things.
2.)Atheists can be as moral as a Christian, in fact they can easily be more moral depending on how you choose to define "moral". Defining morality as "in adherence to the will of god" is not only not a system of reliable morality it's also just plain fucking stupid.
3.)Not only does the Bible not command you to be ethical it absolutely makes demands of people that are not just unethical but flat out evil in any rational context. It's a manual for creating monsters. It's also not any more authoritative on morality and reality then any other book of made up stories. Arguments born of the Bible die swift and just deaths, they are without worth. The book has no value or authority to any thinking people who do not assert that it does.
4.)There is no such thing as "holy" in the way the Bible means it, so that's irrelevant.
5.)What one man finds righteous another might not, so establishing any kind of baseline for what is "righteous" is next to impossible. Just as a word it means different things to different people. It's a fine thing philosophically but in the real word it's next to valueless.
6.)Given no god has been shown to exist any claims to knowledge of his will can be dismissed as fabrications born either of malice or madness.
7.) Not one person get's their values which they actually and actively uphold and engage in from the Bible. Those that claim they do are both lying and cherry picking at best and at worst are actively engaged in violent mental upheavel. They are among the most inconsistent in where they get their "Biblically inspired" morality from. They make extra-Biblical moral judgments about what intra-Biblical morals to follow, a thing which is wholly incompatible with their own ideological view of morality and the Christian World View.
8.) You are welcome to debate for your position. It's wrong, but you are welcome to do so.

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18-11-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

Who's judgment of what is moral are you using?
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18-11-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(17-11-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's been claimed recently by some on this thread that atheists may be as moral as Christians or anyone else. I would debate that proposition but would mention that the Bible nowhere commands any person to be moral or ethical, but rather, to be holy or righteous, which is different.

Your comments?

So, what's your point? If the Bible doesn't command people to be moral, then on what basis would you dispute that atheists are just as moral as Christians?
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18-11-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  I absolutely agree, but I would also add that these morals really only exist as societal constructs.
Society is a bunch of individuals, each with their own beliefs or lack of belief in morality. Of course they interact and influence each other so there will be some trends but society isn't a thinking entity with a moral belief.

(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  Societies deem the appropriate moral standards and then enforce those.
Enforcement equates to coercion by law and law enforcement. Law does not necessarily follow moral beliefs e.g. infidelity is usually legal but is often seen as immoral by many people.


(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  You can agree with the standards or not, but the morality is only truly objective to the extent that people have agreed to be a part of the society.
People don't generally agree to be part of a society. You are born in a country and forced to comply with its laws. In many circumstances people hold moral beliefs or even belong to organisations promoting moral beliefs that are different and/or over and above the laws of the country.
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