Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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18-11-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Try this guy, he seems to be willing to play along.

I look forward to seeing how he's apparently a closet theist.
Drinking Beverage

Thank you, I would have missed him, if it was not for your post.

Either he ends up being a closeted believer of some sort, or he'll end up refuting that he believes in moral obligations.

But this should be fun.
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18-11-2014, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2014 03:20 PM by TreeSapNest.)
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society.

Doesn't that mean that you're not really obligated?
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18-11-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 11:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." -Christopher Hitchens

Easy, "We have moral obligations".

A non-believer who claims to believe this would just be a closeted believer of some sort.

Discuss.

And how do you know this person who says this doesn't simply have a strong, highly ingrained moral or ethical system? It doesn't require belief in woo to want to be a good person through the implementation of self-set ethical standards.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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18-11-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:11 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I am an athiest who has plenty of moral obligations (as all human beings do share).

I'll bite. What obligates you?

Umm, not going to be chased down that familiar rabbit hole with you. Search the forums for threads about moral obligations and what constitutes what is considered moral or not. If you still don't know the answer then I would need to ask why the idea of good behavior is so complicated to understand.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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18-11-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 12:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  I absolutely agree, but I would also add that these morals really only exist as societal constructs.
Society is a bunch of individuals, each with their own beliefs or lack of belief in morality. Of course they interact and influence each other so there will be some trends but society isn't a thinking entity with a moral belief.

(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  Societies deem the appropriate moral standards and then enforce those.
Enforcement equates to coercion by law and law enforcement. Law does not necessarily follow moral beliefs e.g. infidelity is usually legal but is often seen as immoral by many people.


(18-11-2014 08:24 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  You can agree with the standards or not, but the morality is only truly objective to the extent that people have agreed to be a part of the society.
People don't generally agree to be part of a society. You are born in a country and forced to comply with its laws. In many circumstances people hold moral beliefs or even belong to organisations promoting moral beliefs that are different and/or over and above the laws of the country.

I think our morals are molded by the expectations of our society. There will be some range in any given society, but will be relatively consistent.

Enforcement does not have to be by law. It could be public shaming or peer enforcement.

By participating in a society you agree to be part of it, no formal statement is required.
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18-11-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:21 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  I'll bite. What obligates you?

Umm, not going to be chased down that familiar rabbit hole with you. Search the forums for threads about moral obligations and what constitutes what is considered moral or not. If you still don't know the answer then I would need to ask why the idea of good behavior is so complicated to understand.

I thought you were talking about obligation? It's what I asked you about. What obligates you?
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18-11-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 11:36 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." -Christopher Hitchens

Easy, "We have moral obligations".

A non-believer who claims to believe this would just be a closeted believer of some sort.

Discuss.

You seem to be under an illusion (delusion?) that altruism and doing what is right for the betterment of others, is a religious tenet. It’s not. It stems from evolution. Another inconvenient truth.

Be true to yourself. Heart
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18-11-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Try this guy, he seems to be willing to play along.

I look forward to seeing how he's apparently a closet theist.
Drinking Beverage

Thank you, I would have missed him, if it was not for your post.

Either he ends up being a closeted believer of some sort, or he'll end up refuting that he believes in moral obligations.

But this should be fun.

Why do you need to be a believer or theist to have moral obligations? You cannot produce any supporting evidence or test this idea, so it stands as more self righteous nonsense and wishfull thinking. I find your arrogance pathetic and insulting at the same time.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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18-11-2014, 03:31 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society. I don't pretend to speak for you.

So it's not by you "being a member of a society", or " sharing this world with other creatures" that you have moral obligation, since you can imagine that I, even though I am a member of a society, and share the world with other creatures, may not have the same obligations.

But rather you have an obligation to yourself. The obligation is one that you yourself imposed on yourself, or in other words you obligated yourself, to yourself. Can you un-obligate yourself if you chose to ?
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18-11-2014, 03:31 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:24 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:21 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Umm, not going to be chased down that familiar rabbit hole with you. Search the forums for threads about moral obligations and what constitutes what is considered moral or not. If you still don't know the answer then I would need to ask why the idea of good behavior is so complicated to understand.

I thought you were talking about obligation? It's what I asked you about. What obligates you?

Empathy, societal harmony, selfishness (my actions influence how i am treated), secular laws... to name a few.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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