Morals, Christianity, Atheism
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18-11-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society. I don't pretend to speak for you.

So it's not by you "being a member of a society", or " sharing this world with other creatures" that you have moral obligation, since you can imagine that I, even though I am a member of a society, and share the world with other creatures, may not have the same obligations.

But rather you have an obligation to yourself. The obligation is one that you yourself imposed on yourself, or in other words you obligated yourself, to yourself. Can you un-obligate yourself if you chose to ?

Did your neurons and synapses all fire at once to produce that word salad?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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18-11-2014, 03:39 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
I agree with Timber. I try to be a good person because I think that's the best way to live in society and be a productive member of it.

(18-11-2014 03:08 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I don't believe in marriage

At all? Tongue

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18-11-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:25 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Easy, "We have moral obligations".

A non-believer who claims to believe this would just be a closeted believer of some sort.

Discuss.

You seem to be under an illusion (delusion?) that altruism and doing what is right for the betterment of others, is a religious tenet. It’s not. It stems from evolution. Another inconvenient truth.

Finally! somebody hit the nail on the head!!! Human's wouldn't have survived without morals as far as we have come (which includes the event at Mt. Sinai). Social progression is the result of an innate system of morality.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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18-11-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 09:13 AM)cjlr Wrote:  What we call moral impulses have a reliable neurological basis and fall into consistent patterns; those exist regardless.

Patterns, yes. But the specifics are always a problem. Murder is wrong... but how do you define murder? It is killing without cause? The how do you define cause? At this point, you're back to societal constructs.

(18-11-2014 09:13 AM)cjlr Wrote:  there's a certain kind of fool who prates on endlessly about their "inalienable rights", as if the phrase were to be taken literally

I absolutely agree there. While we may refer to inalienable rights, these are really rights that are given by man. If someone treads upon these 'inalienable rights' we're right back to having to look to society to back us up.

(18-11-2014 12:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Enforcement equates to coercion by law and law enforcement. Law does not necessarily follow moral beliefs e.g. infidelity is usually legal but is often seen as immoral by many people.

Enforcement is not simply a 'legal' issue. Many churches, for example, enforce their moral beliefs through shunning. There are all sorts of ways to enforce an idea without law and law enforcement.

(18-11-2014 12:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  People don't generally agree to be part of a society. You are born in a country and forced to comply with its laws

There may not be an explicit statement of "I agree to be a part of this society," but the agreement is there nonetheless. Growing up, the comment I always heard was, "As long as you live under my roof, you will abide by my rules." Like the rules or not, I chose to stay there because I kinda like having a roof over my head and food in my stomach. People have the option to move when they don't like or don't agree with the standards of their society.

You may say that realistically, people don't always have this option, but that doesn't really affect the greater point: by living in a society, you are in (implicit) agreement to be bound by their moral code. As you said:

(18-11-2014 12:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In many circumstances people hold moral beliefs or even belong to organisations promoting moral beliefs that are different and/or over and above the laws of the country.

Whether through civil disobedience, open revolt, etc., there have always been people who have gone against the ideals of their society. This doesn't mean they are right. In fact, if their protests go against the status quo, they're holding the 'incorrect' position up until the time that the tides turn and society changes its outlook.

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18-11-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 01:27 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  To answer (some of) your questions:

To be holy and righteous in the biblical sense/definition includes:

*A separation from some worldly things to cleave unto Jesus Christ

*Worshipping Jesus Christ

*Being cleansed by the Holy Spirit and forgiven of sin

*Etc.

Some atheists can be as ethical or moral as some Christians. I would debate that as a class, atheists are more moral than Bible-believing Christians but per the Bible, atheists, secularists and adherents of other religions are not as holy as Christians.

Cause.....THAT makes sense.
Sure.

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18-11-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:25 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  You seem to be under an illusion (delusion?) that altruism and doing what is right for the betterment of others, is a religious tenet. It’s not. It stems from evolution. Another inconvenient truth.

And you seem to be under the impression that feelings equate to obligation. You can talk all you want as to why I feel this or that based on my evolution, but once you leave the realm of an "is" to "oughts" (obligations) that's where problems arise. Obligations may be beliefs about certain sentiments, but they are not sentiments themselves.
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18-11-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society. I don't pretend to speak for you.

So it's not by you "being a member of a society", or " sharing this world with other creatures" that you have moral obligation, since you can imagine that I, even though I am a member of a society, and share the world with other creatures, may not have the same obligations.

But rather you have an obligation to yourself. The obligation is one that you yourself imposed on yourself, or in other words you obligated yourself, to yourself. Can you un-obligate yourself if you chose to ?

I said I have an obligation to others; I did not say that they imposed the obligation. I imposed it on myself and while I would expect the obligations you accept to overlap mine significantly I do not expect them to be identical.

If I decided that some of the obligations I have imposed on myself are no longer important or relevant then I would modify those obligations accordingly.

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18-11-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 03:17 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I have assumed those obligations for myself because I wish to participate in society.

Doesn't that mean that you're not really obligated?

Hmmm... I'm not sure I see how I could have obligations that were imposed by anybody but myself. I will have to think about that.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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18-11-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
To be obligated requires no imposer.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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18-11-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: Morals, Christianity, Atheism
(18-11-2014 04:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-11-2014 03:17 PM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  Doesn't that mean that you're not really obligated?

Hmmm... I'm not sure I see how I could have obligations that were imposed by anybody but myself. I will have to think about that.


Exactly, if all it requires for you to no longer be obligated, is for you to decide to no longer be, than they are not in fact obligations, they are in essence just your personal preferences.

One down, any other takers?
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