Morals and Ethics without the christian god
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30-07-2011, 06:27 AM
Morals and Ethics without the christian god
Ok for americans it would be hard, seeing that they know so little about other parts of the world anyway. But for christians in general, who do know that tribes that have had no influence from the modern world do exist.
I have been watching a lot of videos where christian claim that without the Bible there would be no sense of right and wrong and morals.......and here comes to observable physical proof Ta-dah!


There are tribes that not until recently have been found, having their own social system. Many of them have existed for uncountable centuries from any influences of the modern world and religious nonsense. Some of these tribes have their own beliefs and some have none but each of them have survived and compared to the 'modern' western community live in much greater harmony and caring environment than them.
Many tribes believe in monogamy in that extent that when they marry this will be for life and when their spouse dies they will not marry again. Many tribes also apply a non-physical love, when they decide that they have had the offspring they wanted they no longer use physical means as en expression of love. Simply caring about and being true to their word of loving each other.

Now if that isn't high morals? I wonder how christians try to explain this in relations to their claim that there are no morals without God.

If no God suggested that people would do whatever they wanted and got tempted to, these tribes would have ceased to exist as soon as they would have come together.
Why do christian scorn women dressing up in skimpy skirts and tops? Their own story is that man was born naked......so would it not be natural that people show their nakedness? And it is only christians that see it as something sexual, while the person being on the nude beach or walk at home nude see it simply as it is.....something natural and how you are born. If god would scorn nakedness then why are babies not born with clothes?
Again in many tribes, only a loin cloth is used for both men and women and if nakedness would be purely sexual, then they would probably not do anything else that getting it on every hour of the day? But then there is the issue of morals, where did they morals come from? .......not from God......not from the Bible.....


For christians believing that we have no relations to animal whatsoever may find it very disturbing that some of our most basic behaviours can be observed in any animal on the planet. (not to make this too long, but since we're atheist in here I'm sure you all know what they are)

Native tribes around the world even had a much more peaceful way of life before christian colonization!!

Ok another claim from christians "God is not evil, people are".
Simple, god created evil in the first place, so you can't really blame it on the people.
And if you do blame it on the people because of "free will and choice" it is not accurate because the person in THIS life-time did not get that choice, it was Adam and Eve who made the choice to sin so you are basically just suffering from the consequences that your 'ancestors' did. It is like saying........all germans now should be put in prison and take the punishment for what their ancestors did to the Jews. Would that be fair? To punish a 5 year old german girl, who personally had absolutely no idea nor shared any views of that of her ancestor?
So why aren't mothers and fathers of prisoners on death not being executed with their children?

And another similar argument is "God teaches us love and to be good, so only people abuse the bible for their own gain"

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)"
NOTE: How can you see this as anything else than literal? This is literal proof "Gods words", that slavery is accepted. That a woman can be sold as an item. I don't think people inerpret thebible wrong or abuse it, when it so clearly says these things are allowed.

2. "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"
NOTE: So anyone you see ont he street that is.......atheist......buddhist......hindu.....any of the million new age believers.......pagan......any of hundreds maybe thousand still existing tribals believers.......satanist.....and so on.
You are really meant to kill these people!! But then you might think "but one of the commandments are, not to kill"....but then you read this passage again and you see that he clearly gives you the "license to kill anyone who isn't a believer of god", and then you kill the Abortion doctor and the cops come and tase you and you wake up in death row and you think to yourself.......yeah......I did a good thing, god knows it. Oh wait, is that christian?? The same christians that say that muslims are crazy suicidal maniacs for killing people of another belief??

If anyone truly followed the Bible, here is something that would probably illiminate 90% of the entire world population.
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)"

NOTE: Yes indeed, it DOES say to kill your kids if they curse you. But don't worry, don't feel bad about your christian kids when you strike them with a blade or suffocate them with a pillow whent hey sleep, they're still going to heaven Smile

And to all muslim hating christians.......
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

.....you guys sadly share the exact same opinion as muslims according to the Bible wheteher you want it or not. Masskilling of people with a different religion and those who are worshipping a 'false' god.
http://youtu.be/HmxR6jYR6pk

So anyway there are so many passages that could prove that "people" are not he ones that are evil and misinterpreting the true will of GOD. Since christians believe that the Bible is the word of God.......why do you question it? Is that not an act against god? But then......why don't you act upon it? Then are you not a hypocrite? In whichever way you twist it, christians will always come to a dead end.
This ultimately answers the "but this is how I see the Bible and it's stories and how I interpret them", where in the Bible does it say you have to interpret it, did God say that he only used vague symbolism and that man is to truly decipher it? If you decide that one passage is not true, then who are you to judge against the word of God? And what gives you the ability to inerpret it different and more correct than anyone else? And if you say that "I apply things in the Bible appropriate to me" then you are not truly following the word of God, you are making up your own mind on things and that is what the Bible and ultimately god is preaching against. Either way.......you lose.


SORRY LONG POST! These are just some of my views, obviously as a scientist I don't say I have the ultimate answers, but my answers in fact have been "developing" through the years and are getting more solid although far from perfect.
Because really........only God is perfect so must his answers be?
Big Grin
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30-07-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
The Hebrews were a little, ignorant tribe who chose to forget whence they inherited their oldest stories and liked to pretend that Assyria and Egypt were not far more advanced than themselves in agriculture, architecture, commerce, law and the arts, as well as religion. The Christians took over that same constricted view, even though they had the entire Greco-Roman culture, as well as the occupied territories, to compare with. Every one of those nations already had a body of ethical standards and legal traditions.
And they had lots and lots of gods, too. And they functioned just fine, until somebody bombed them back to the stone age.... much as modern peoples do.
They didn't then, and don't now, believe the bs about morality; they just use it to justify immoral acts against others.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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30-07-2011, 11:34 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 06:27 AM)Cusquenita Wrote:  Now if that isn't high morals? I wonder how christians try to explain this in relations to their claim that there are no morals without God.
The claim that all morals come from God doesn't mean that only those who know God have morals. God has given all of us an innate sense of right and wrong.
Quote:For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
Romans 2:14,15 ESV
Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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30-07-2011, 11:58 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
Quote:Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.

You're pre-supposing your God's existence and attributes. Can you prove this God exists? Can you prove this God is Moral? Or are you going to beg the question?

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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30-07-2011, 11:31 PM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 11:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.

Deaths in the bible God - 2, 270, 365+ Satan - 10 Rolleyes

"The bible has been shown to be logically, historically, philosophically, sociologically, scientifically and even morally dead wrong about´╗┐ everything back to front" - Aron Ra
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30-07-2011, 11:42 PM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 11:31 PM)Danny Wrote:  
(30-07-2011 11:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.

Deaths in the bible God - 2, 270, 365+ Satan - 10 Rolleyes

Praise God for our research abilities! Allahu Akhbar!

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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31-07-2011, 12:07 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 11:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(30-07-2011 06:27 AM)Cusquenita Wrote:  Now if that isn't high morals? I wonder how christians try to explain this in relations to their claim that there are no morals without God.
The claim that all morals come from God doesn't mean that only those who know God have morals. God has given all of us an innate sense of right and wrong.
Quote:For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
Romans 2:14,15 ESV
Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.

What sort of gift stimulates self righteous hatred more than a gift from the perceived moral master of the Universe? I look at life and honour evolutionary toil
above ethereal dictators.
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31-07-2011, 05:43 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 11:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(30-07-2011 06:27 AM)Cusquenita Wrote:  Now if that isn't high morals? I wonder how christians try to explain this in relations to their claim that there are no morals without God.
The claim that all morals come from God doesn't mean that only those who know God have morals. God has given all of us an innate sense of right and wrong.
Quote:For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
Romans 2:14,15 ESV
Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence.


Ok look at it this way, if you say that god has given the ability for man to know what is right and wrong.....which would explain tribes not having read the bible.....right
BUT.......what is the use of the ten commandments and all the pretty stories in the Bible........if people already have this in themselves?
In these tribes they don't believe in that one god that you claim is right. Nor had they ever been given a chance to believe in him but they still have the sense of right and wrong. But morals aren't the most important thing for god, no god doesn't really care if you go and slaughter someone as long as you believe in god and ask for forgiveness. So would it not be unfair, for good and pure people who do not believe and haven't even got the chance to be presented by the option of god, that they would automatically go to hell........for not believing?

Whereas us in the evolution believe that we do have this sense of right and wrong because it is in nature. Not only humans but animals alike. Animals live in societies as well. Do they have this sense as well created by god? Then why don't they constantly need to be reminded of it? If only humans needed the texts etc then animals would basically be programmed robots. Which is not right either because just like a mother would protect her children, this very instinct is in animals as well.
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31-07-2011, 07:10 AM
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
Given (sic.... Be it resolved?): All morality comes from God.
All morality came from God before anybody heard of God, before God talked to any prophets, before any holy guys wrote any holy books.

So...... Why bother with the holy books? The burning bush, the tablets, the whale, the parables, the destruction of cities, the whole nasty business of teaching some few people a lesson and another lesson and another lesson? (Not even to mention that lovely circular bit of stagecraft where "I'm so mad at you for being the way I made you that nothing you have is good enough to appease me, so I'll give you my son to snuff and that will keep me happy until the first crusade .... as long as you never forgive the people who do the actual snuffing on my command." )

Maybe we were better off without morality? Consider the birds of the air.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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01-08-2011, 08:41 AM
 
RE: Morals and Ethics without the christian god
(30-07-2011 11:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Your knowledge of right and wrong is in fact a gift from God, whether or not you acknowledge his existence

Whether or not you acknowledge it, your sense of right and wrong is a product of evolution and your god is nonexistent.

What do you think you're doing by making the occasional post insisting on some unsubstantiated claim and then ignoring all criticism? If you want everyone to marvel at your ignorance as you remind some of us why we find religion disgusting, you're doing a great job.
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