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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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15-04-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 01:45 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 01:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. Breaking the law is not using a loophole. It is just breaking the law.

Circumventing a law that is intended to be preventive, is still a loophole.

The law is not being circumvented - it is being broken.

Quote:In the end, what do you think you are proving by removing this one word (which is a synonym of inadequate and ambiguous, so if those terms apply then loophole should too) from the "gunshow loophole" argument? Does this justify the inadequate laws governing the sale of private guns?

The point is that "gun show loophole" is a lie.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-04-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
This video doesn’t add anything to the discussion but it does offer a bit of levity, found it while going down the rabbit hole looking for smart gun vids.

Many Darwin Award wannabes, some just flat out Global Facepalm inductees.




“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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15-04-2015, 04:11 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 01:45 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Circumventing a law that is intended to be preventive, is still a loophole.

The law is not being circumvented - it is being broken.

Quote:In the end, what do you think you are proving by removing this one word (which is a synonym of inadequate and ambiguous, so if those terms apply then loophole should too) from the "gunshow loophole" argument? Does this justify the inadequate laws governing the sale of private guns?

The point is that "gun show loophole" is a lie.

The gun show loophole as part of a private sales loophole, is a real problem.

You don't like it being called that, but you're wrong as that is what it is.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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15-04-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 04:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  The law is not being circumvented - it is being broken.


The point is that "gun show loophole" is a lie.

The gun show loophole as part of a private sales loophole, is a real problem.

You don't like it being called that, but you're wrong as that is what it is.
Criminals invented the illegal sale.

You won't prevent the criminals, just the law abiding citizen from selling a gun legally....

And oddly - you seem ok with that.

.......................................

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15-04-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 04:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  The law is not being circumvented - it is being broken.


The point is that "gun show loophole" is a lie.

The gun show loophole as part of a private sales loophole, is a real problem.

You don't like it being called that, but you're wrong as that is what it is.

There is no loophole that allows the legal sale of a firearm.

If you go 100mph on a deserted highway, are you taking advantage of The Missing Cop Loophole?

If you commit a random murder leaving no clues, are you taking advantage of The Psychopathic Murder Loophole?

You are misusing the words. It is a dishonest term.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-04-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
So I don't think gun ownership or non affects violence one way or another. There is some anecdotal evidence to imply that more people with guns do prevent violence, but it's not strong.

What's probably happening is that there is some compounding third factor. Such as lack of (proper) education, poverty, or religious stupidity that is influencing murder and violent crime rates.

And yes, protection is a valid reason to own a gun and to be pro-gun. Not just from animals, but from people. I live near one of the most dangerous cities in the country, home of the poorest least educated and most religiously nutters people you can imagine. Not to mention a ton of meth heads who are just nuts. You can bet your ass I own a gun, and that I know how to use it.
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15-04-2015, 07:30 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 06:27 PM)natachan Wrote:  I live near one of the most dangerous cities in the country, home of the poorest least educated and most religiously nutters people you can imagine. Not to mention a ton of meth heads who are just nuts. You can bet your ass I own a gun, and that I know how to use it.
And perhaps 50% of the time you will win and get to live for the next battle, that’s assuming it’s a fair fight and they don’t sneak up on you or pull out their gun first.

Perhaps relocating to a safer neighborhood would provide more protection than possessing a gun.
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15-04-2015, 07:40 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 12:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't simply about having strict gun laws, it is about having useful gun laws, responsible gun owners, and better regulation of the guns and gun owners.

Exactly. That means that binary views on the issue are pretty useless. The factors that go into criminal statistics are so varied and complex that singling out one factor and taking steps against it is probably not a very useful strategy. I'm reminded of our bombing campaign against Germany in WWII, wherein we threw fleets of bombers at so-called "chokepoints" (ball bearings, steel plants) in their economy with the hope that disabling that sector of the economy would cripple the whole.

Complex reality doesn't work that way, especially in an arena where two opposed parties are equally invested in the conflict, as is also the case in gun control. When one side strikes what it thinks is a blow to the others' strategy, the other will simply adapt in order to pursue its agenda.

Gun laws must take into account the attitudes of both gun users and gun controllers. The question is, how far is either side willing to compromise?

Me, I like the idea of being able to own a gun, although I don't currently own one. I will buy one soon because living where I do, wild animals are common, and while crime is not, if it does occur, there nearest sheriff's substation is a 30-minute drive away. In my opinion, the right to self-defense is an inalienable right, and though I don't anticipate calling upon that right, I certainly want it handy should I need it.

I think that the solution to the argument is through smart guns, coupled with universal background checks that are not impeded by medical privacy/HIPAA regulations.

All our rights, except the 3rd Amendment, have attached restrictions, usually attached later by courts; and that is fine. But the right to defend oneself against illegal assault is one that ought to be untrammeled, in my opinion. And to my mind, that means that while guns ought to certainly be regulated, and probably more tightly than they are currently, the right of a sane, sober, and responsible person to own a gun shouldn't be infringed, at all. And yes, a buyer should have to demonstrate all three qualities prior to purchase.
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15-04-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 07:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 06:27 PM)natachan Wrote:  I live near one of the most dangerous cities in the country, home of the poorest least educated and most religiously nutters people you can imagine. Not to mention a ton of meth heads who are just nuts. You can bet your ass I own a gun, and that I know how to use it.
And perhaps 50% of the time you will win and get to live for the next battle, that’s assuming it’s a fair fight and they don’t sneak up on you or pull out their gun first.

Perhaps relocating to a safer neighborhood would provide more protection than possessing a gun.

Since only 8% of violent crime in this country involves guns, I feel pretty good about my chances. If someone bigger than me wants to rob or rape me, even if they don't have a gun, I'm screwed. With a gun I'm in a better position.

I can't move out. I live away from this but I work in a city with the city. Am I supposed to not work?
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15-04-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 08:47 PM)natachan Wrote:  If someone bigger than me wants to rob or rape me, even if they don't have a gun, I'm screwed. With a gun I'm in a better position.
On the flip, if someone smaller than you wants to attack you then a gun will make them brave enough to do it.
Making guns available to you, also makes guns available to them.

(15-04-2015 08:47 PM)natachan Wrote:  I can't move out. I live away from this but I work in a city with the city. Am I supposed to not work?
I work in a city, I feel pretty safe, don't carry a gun or any weapon. The vast majority of others around me don't carry guns or weapons.
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