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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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16-04-2015, 06:08 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(15-04-2015 05:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 04:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The gun show loophole as part of a private sales loophole, is a real problem.

You don't like it being called that, but you're wrong as that is what it is.

There is no loophole that allows the legal sale of a firearm.

If you go 100mph on a deserted highway, are you taking advantage of The Missing Cop Loophole?

If you commit a random murder leaving no clues, are you taking advantage of The Psychopathic Murder Loophole?

You are misusing the words. It is a dishonest term.

Being able to speed isn't about a loophole in speeding laws.

Being able to commit murder isn't about loopholes in murder laws.

Being able to sell a gun to a private party and buy a gun from a private party that bypasses background checks and/or licensure checks, does circumvent insufficient and inadequate gun laws.

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16-04-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 06:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 05:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no loophole that allows the legal sale of a firearm.

If you go 100mph on a deserted highway, are you taking advantage of The Missing Cop Loophole?

If you commit a random murder leaving no clues, are you taking advantage of The Psychopathic Murder Loophole?

You are misusing the words. It is a dishonest term.

Being able to speed isn't about a loophole in speeding laws.

Being able to commit murder isn't about loopholes in murder laws.

Being able to sell a gun to a private party and buy a gun from a private party that bypasses background checks and/or licensure checks, does circumvent insufficient and inadequate gun laws.

No, it doesn't. It is breaking the law just like speeding or killing.

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16-04-2015, 06:46 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 06:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Being able to speed isn't about a loophole in speeding laws.

Being able to commit murder isn't about loopholes in murder laws.

Being able to sell a gun to a private party and buy a gun from a private party that bypasses background checks and/or licensure checks, does circumvent insufficient and inadequate gun laws.

No, it doesn't. It is breaking the law just like speeding or killing.

The gun sale loophole isn't just like speeding, unless you consider that it's a stretch of highway that police aren't allowed to patrol and the speed limit is still there.

Because if I want to buy a gun, and I can't legally do so, there is still a very easy way to get one, and that is to buy it from someone in a personal transaction where there is no one actually patrolling the sale or monitoring.

That. Is. A. Loophole.

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16-04-2015, 06:47 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
There is nothing in the definition of a loophole (including the definition you provided) that says it must be explicitly legal thanks to said loophole.

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16-04-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 06:46 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it doesn't. It is breaking the law just like speeding or killing.

The gun sale loophole isn't just like speeding, unless you consider that it's a stretch of highway that police aren't allowed to patrol and the speed limit is still there.

Because if I want to buy a gun, and I can't legally do so, there is still a very easy way to get one, and that is to buy it from someone in a personal transaction where there is no one actually patrolling the sale or monitoring.

That. Is. A. Loophole.

No, it isn't. The law is very clear and the sale is illegal. You are misusing the term 'loophole'.

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16-04-2015, 07:03 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 06:47 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is nothing in the definition of a loophole (including the definition you provided) that says it must be explicitly legal thanks to said loophole.

Quote:Loophole
An omission or Ambiguity in a legal document that allows the intent of the document to be evaded.
Loopholes come into being through the passage of statutes, the enactment of regulations, the drafting of contracts or the decisions of courts. A loophole allows an individual or group to use some gap in the restrictions or requirements of the law or contract for personal advantage without technically breaking the law or contract. In response, lawmakers and regulators work to pass reforms that will close the loophole.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-04-2015, 07:04 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 06:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 06:46 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The gun sale loophole isn't just like speeding, unless you consider that it's a stretch of highway that police aren't allowed to patrol and the speed limit is still there.

Because if I want to buy a gun, and I can't legally do so, there is still a very easy way to get one, and that is to buy it from someone in a personal transaction where there is no one actually patrolling the sale or monitoring.

That. Is. A. Loophole.

No, it isn't. The law is very clear and the sale is illegal. You are misusing the term 'loophole'.

You keep saying that, but you have not substantiated your premise at all. In fact, you've provided examples and definitions that do not support what you're arguing for.

Let's go back to your attempt at comparing it to speeding. The intent of the law in the case of speed limits is to prevent speeding. These laws (in reality) are applied homogeneously across a highway. Allowing for equal opportunity for enforcement.

The private sales/gun show loophole is comparable to a zone of the highway where there is no government enforcement or regulation of the standing speed limit. Effectively creating a loophole where speeding (although still illegal) is unenforceable.

Loop, meet hole.

If all you have are same canned responses that I'm wrong, with no explanation as to how I am or how you're correct, don't bother.

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16-04-2015, 07:05 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 07:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 06:47 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There is nothing in the definition of a loophole (including the definition you provided) that says it must be explicitly legal thanks to said loophole.

Quote:Loophole
An omission or Ambiguity in a legal document that allows the intent of the document to be evaded.
Loopholes come into being through the passage of statutes, the enactment of regulations, the drafting of contracts or the decisions of courts. A loophole allows an individual or group to use some gap in the restrictions or requirements of the law or contract for personal advantage without technically breaking the law or contract. In response, lawmakers and regulators work to pass reforms that will close the loophole.

Where does this definition come from? Is your previous definition from Wikipedia no longer sufficient?

Regardless, I'm being consistent in how I use the term loophole with common definitions of the term. Such that it is also a synonym for inadequate and insufficient.

You're cherry-picking definitions now so as to avoid the arguments and examples.

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16-04-2015, 07:09 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2015 07:17 AM by Chas.)
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 07:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 07:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  

Where does this definition come from? Is your previous definition from Wikipedia no longer sufficient?

Regardless, I'm being consistent in how I use the term loophole with common definitions of the term. Such that it is also a synonym for inadequate and insufficient.

You're cherry-picking definitions now so as to avoid the arguments and examples.

I'm not cherry-picking - that was a definition (linked) from a legal site.

Oxford Dictionary Wrote:loophole (in something) a mistake in the way a law, contract, etc. has been written which enables people to legally avoid doing something that the law, contract, etc. had intended them to do.

The correct usage of loophole is that you avoid the intent without breaking the letter of the law. If you don't agree with that, fine - you are wrong.

This is an example of a general problem in the gun debate - poor terminology. Some is chosen for its emotional impact over truth, some is just ignorant.
Both sides are guilty of this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-04-2015, 07:20 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(16-04-2015 07:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 07:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Where does this definition come from? Is your previous definition from Wikipedia no longer sufficient?

Regardless, I'm being consistent in how I use the term loophole with common definitions of the term. Such that it is also a synonym for inadequate and insufficient.

You're cherry-picking definitions now so as to avoid the arguments and examples.

I'm not cherry-picking - that was a definition (linked) from a legal site.

Oxford Dictionary Wrote:loophole (in something) a mistake in the way a law, contract, etc. has been written which enables people to legally avoid doing something that the law, contract, etc. had intended them to do.

The correct usage of loophole is that you avoid the intent without breaking the letter of the law. If you don't agree with that, fine - you are wrong.

This is an example of a general problem in the gun debate - poor terminology. Some is chosen for its emotional impact over truth, some is just ignorant.
Both sides are guilty of this.

I've already explained to you how (including using examples you provided) how it is still a loophole.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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