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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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26-04-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(25-04-2015 03:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 02:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  The problem is the inappropriate storage by the owner.
Sure, so we have laws that guns are to be disarmed in the house, separated from ammunition etc. This makes a gun in the home ineffective for home defense.

And it would be a stupid law for that reason. I can, and do, lock up a loaded gun that I can get to quickly. There are various methods like combination locks, electronic locks, and biometrics that allow for secure storage with fast access.

In Massachusetts where the laws on storage and transport are quite strict, I don't have to store guns and ammunition separately. However, for transport I do.

The exception to all of the above is a a firearm under my direct control can be loaded and ready. Otherwise, guns and ammunition must be locked up.

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29-04-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
I haven't read through the entire thread - but what do you do with those stats that indicate a decrease in crime when concealed carry laws are loosened? Like Chicago. Do you just ignore that?

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29-04-2015, 06:52 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 06:30 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I haven't read through the entire thread - but what do you do with those stats that indicate a decrease in crime when concealed carry laws are loosened? Like Chicago. Do you just ignore that?

I would say it's dependent on the situation. Chicago has had lots of crime so a looser carry law may act as a good deterent against mugging. Additionally, it also may be subject to other factors like increased police presence. However I'm not aware of Chicago's situation or the time period you're referring to so, idk.
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29-04-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 06:30 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I haven't read through the entire thread - but what do you do with those stats that indicate a decrease in crime when concealed carry laws are loosened? Like Chicago. Do you just ignore that?

When the laws inside of a city can be circumvented by getting guns outside of the city, it makes those laws rather futile. (I assume you meant an increase in gun violence and not a decrease).

The point is that the common argument that guns somehow have to do with a correlation with improved safety, are completely baseless. Even in the case of Chicago, more guns still does not mean less crime or improved safety. It also means that limited gun laws that can easily be circumvented or gun laws that cannot be readily enforced, don't help either.

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29-04-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 11:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 06:30 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I haven't read through the entire thread - but what do you do with those stats that indicate a decrease in crime when concealed carry laws are loosened? Like Chicago. Do you just ignore that?

When the laws inside of a city can be circumvented by getting guns outside of the city, it makes those laws rather futile. (I assume you meant an increase in gun violence and not a decrease).

The point is that the common argument that guns somehow have to do with a correlation with improved safety, are completely baseless. Even in the case of Chicago, more guns still does not mean less crime or improved safety. It also means that limited gun laws that can easily be circumvented or gun laws that cannot be readily enforced, don't help either.

That's not what she said at all. Facepalm

The laws in Chicago changed, allowing more people to legally own handguns. Subsequently, the crime rate went down.

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29-04-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
Having more guns doesn't help.


Having more people LEGALLY OWNING guns, sure seems to.


Why?

Because people who do things legally are seldom the problem.

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29-04-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 11:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 11:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When the laws inside of a city can be circumvented by getting guns outside of the city, it makes those laws rather futile. (I assume you meant an increase in gun violence and not a decrease).

The point is that the common argument that guns somehow have to do with a correlation with improved safety, are completely baseless. Even in the case of Chicago, more guns still does not mean less crime or improved safety. It also means that limited gun laws that can easily be circumvented or gun laws that cannot be readily enforced, don't help either.

That's not what she said at all. Facepalm

The laws in Chicago changed, allowing more people to legally own handguns. Subsequently, the crime rate went down.

I've never seen any data for that. Got a link?

How long ago did these laws change? And, was the drop in crime rate statistically significant? (this would be easier to conclude if the new laws have been in effect longer).

It would also be interesting to note if it is a continued trend in a crime rate drop and if the changing gun laws were coincidental.

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29-04-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
If it is the observation I am thinking about, then the "drop in crime" after the changing gun laws was a single data point for the year of 2014. And not long after the report of the reduced murder rate for the year of 2014, there was a weekend where 11 people were killed.

As it turned out, that weekend was one of the first to coincide with a nice spring weekend after a particularly long and harsh winter (which has been implemented in reduced crime over winters before because of decreased activity).

If this is the data being referred to, it is unconvincing as it is very limited and could have an easily explainable alternative.



Regardless (I'll assume it is more than a single year and has an appearance of a longer trend), I would first ask why this particular example would buck the trend seen in the larger dataset. And then I would look for a logical connection as to what could trigger that exemption. A surge in conceal carry applications or in the number of people carrying guns, doesn't seem to obviously explain any of it. Especially since Chicago already had a lot of guns, so why did the increased number of guns correlate with increased crime, but then more guns correlated with decreased crime? Especially given that much of Chicago's gun violence is gang-related, meaning that more guns carried by those being properly permitted, shouldn't have any effect on gang on gang murders.

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29-04-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 11:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 11:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  That's not what she said at all. Facepalm

The laws in Chicago changed, allowing more people to legally own handguns. Subsequently, the crime rate went down.

I've never seen any data for that. Got a link?

How long ago did these laws change? And, was the drop in crime rate statistically significant? (this would be easier to conclude if the new laws have been in effect longer).

It would also be interesting to note if it is a continued trend in a crime rate drop and if the changing gun laws were coincidental.

I might look it up, but it wasn't my assertion - I was just clarifying what she said.

Edit: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

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29-04-2015, 12:12 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(29-04-2015 12:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 11:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've never seen any data for that. Got a link?

How long ago did these laws change? And, was the drop in crime rate statistically significant? (this would be easier to conclude if the new laws have been in effect longer).

It would also be interesting to note if it is a continued trend in a crime rate drop and if the changing gun laws were coincidental.

I might look it up, but it wasn't my assertion - I was just clarifying what she said.

Edit: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014.../?page=all

Okay, so it is the one year

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