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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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13-04-2015, 05:11 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, not the point of this thread at all. I believe Mr. Jeffries is correct, and don't care if you disagree with that particular opinion, chas.

Well, then, both of you are full of shit.

An interesting observation. I'll consider your opinion and as I do so, I will look for all the fucks I give to go with your anecdotes.

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13-04-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
Looks like boxing ring or Viper Pit material. Dodgy

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13-04-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:44 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But certainly more sporting.

Think about it. You tell a friend you killed a moose with a 30-06 at 100 yards.

Or

You killed a moose with a big goddamn stick at point blank range.

Which scenario is more badass and makes a better campfire story?

It's not about badass or stories. It's about meat.

If it is about hunting then only hunting rifles would be sold and why not greatly increase the restriction on getting a gun licence? If you're a hunting you'd go through the process.

I'm with TBD on this one, the only argument you have is "I like guns".
But I don't see why you don't just embrace that reason, it's not necessarily a bad reason.

Quote:Protection. I live in the country, out of sight of any neighbors or the street.
I am also outside quite a lot - there are dangerous critters.

I've already had to shoot a rabid raccoon and drive off coyotes.

Don't bother with the statistics about having a gun makes it more likely ...

Statistics apply to populations, not to individuals.

Not everyone is in your situation. Not everyone lives in some backwater surrounded by man-eatting rabid dogs.

Again, if you tighten restrictions and you're in that situation than you're going to go through the process.

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13-04-2015, 05:16 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:15 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about badass or stories. It's about meat.

If it is about hunting then only hunting rifles would be sold and why not greatly increase the restriction on getting a gun licence? If you're a hunting you'd go through the process.

I'm with TBD on this one, the only argument you have is "I like guns".
But I don't see why you don't just embrace that reason, it's not necessarily a bad reason.

Quote:Protection. I live in the country, out of sight of any neighbors or the street.
I am also outside quite a lot - there are dangerous critters.

I've already had to shoot a rabid raccoon and drive off coyotes.

Don't bother with the statistics about having a gun makes it more likely ...

Statistics apply to populations, not to individuals.

Not everyone is in your situation. Not everyone lives in some backwater surrounded by man-eatting rabid dogs.

Again, if you tighten restrictions and you're in that situation than you're going to go through the process.

I agree with...muffs(?)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-04-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 03:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, what do we see in the plot of murder rate vs gun ownership? No trend (r^2 of 0.01).
A focus on gun ownership can also be misleading.
In countries like Switzerland, most males are forced (by law) to have a rifle and go through training, they aren't issued with bullets. So they have the gun (unusable) sitting in their house. It's a rifle so it's hard to conceal, it doesn't contribute to random crime because rifles are hard to carry around without drawing attention. It obviously doesn't contribute to self defense, because women aren't walking home alone at night carrying their government issue rifle.
Perhaps it contributes to the death of wives and girlfriends via jealous or angry husbands and boyfriends. and perhaps it contributes to suicide rates.
But certainly a key differentiator is that the Swiss are given training and those that have guns aren't necessarily rednecks who deem it their right (or duty as an American) to arm themselves to the hilt and like to brag about what arsenal they have at home.
Personally I feel people wanting to be in power are the least trust worthy and hence not really suited for the job. A person reluctantly doing it because they understand the responsibility and need for it rather than the desire for power are the best suited leaders. For me the same thing goes with guns. Those that leap towards guns with boyish enthusiasm and excitement are (in my mind) the least trust worthy with a gun, those that would rather not have a gun but reluctantly do (in the hope of never having to use it) are much more trust worthy.
It seems to me that most guns in USA civilian possession are owned by those that are excited and enthusiastic about them. They picture themselves as national heroes, defenders of the public, patriots, protectors of democracy.

Of course I could be wrong, but this is my perception.
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13-04-2015, 05:19 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 03:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, what do we see in the plot of murder rate vs gun ownership? No trend (r^2 of 0.01).
A focus on gun ownership can also be misleading.
In countries like Switzerland, most males are forced (by law) to have a rifle and go through training, they aren't issued with bullets. So they have the gun (unusable) sitting in their house. It's a rifle so it's hard to conceal, it doesn't contribute to random crime because rifles are hard to carry around without drawing attention. It obviously doesn't contribute to self defense, because women aren't walking home alone at night carrying their government issue rifle.
Perhaps it contributes to the death of wives and girlfriends via jealous or angry husbands and boyfriends. and perhaps it contributes to suicide rates.
But certainly a key differentiator is that the Swiss are given training and those that have guns aren't necessarily rednecks who deem it their right (or duty as an American) to arm themselves to the hilt and like to brag about what arsenal they have at home.
Personally I feel people wanting to be in power are the least trust worthy and hence not really suited for the job. A person reluctantly doing it because they understand the responsibility and need for it rather than the desire for power are the best suited leaders. For me the same thing goes with guns. Those that leap towards guns with boyish enthusiasm and excitement are (in my mind) the least trust worthy with a gun, those that would rather not have a gun but reluctantly do (in the hope of never having to use it) are much more trust worthy.
It seems to me that most guns in USA civilian possession are owned by those that are excited and enthusiastic about them. They picture themselves as national heroes, defenders of the public, patriots, protectors of democracy.

Of course I could be wrong, but this is my perception.

Yeah, there are other issues involved in this too which include training and regulation. Also a reason why trying to compare crime rates in the U.S. to other countries with high gun ownership rates is hard.

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13-04-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.

To deny it, is to deny history....

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13-04-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:15 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about badass or stories. It's about meat.

If it is about hunting then only hunting rifles would be sold and why not greatly increase the restriction on getting a gun licence? If you're a hunting you'd go through the process.

I'm with TBD on this one, the only argument you have is "I like guns".
But I don't see why you don't just embrace that reason, it's not necessarily a bad reason.

Quote:Protection. I live in the country, out of sight of any neighbors or the street.
I am also outside quite a lot - there are dangerous critters.

I've already had to shoot a rabid raccoon and drive off coyotes.

Don't bother with the statistics about having a gun makes it more likely ...

Statistics apply to populations, not to individuals.

Not everyone is in your situation. Not everyone lives in some backwater surrounded by man-eatting rabid dogs.

Yabut, I do.

Quote:Again, if you tighten restrictions and you're in that situation than you're going to go through the process.

The restrictions where I live are already pretty tight and I have gone through that process.

There have been several threads on firearms here. I have always advocated for reasonable restrictions, safety training, safe gun storage, etc., etc.

Repeating the ad hominem "you just like guns" in the face of actual reasons for owning a firearm gets tiresome.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-04-2015, 05:23 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.

To deny it, is to deny history....

Now you're on to the comparisons with dictatorships if people question guns and gun rights

You're batshit crazy and delusional. You must be in the NRA!

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13-04-2015, 05:25 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:15 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If it is about hunting then only hunting rifles would be sold and why not greatly increase the restriction on getting a gun licence? If you're a hunting you'd go through the process.

I'm with TBD on this one, the only argument you have is "I like guns".
But I don't see why you don't just embrace that reason, it's not necessarily a bad reason.


Not everyone is in your situation. Not everyone lives in some backwater surrounded by man-eatting rabid dogs.

Yabut, I do.

Quote:Again, if you tighten restrictions and you're in that situation than you're going to go through the process.

The restrictions where I live are already pretty tight and I have gone through that process.

There have been several threads on firearms here. I have always advocated for reasonable restrictions, safety training, safe gun storage, etc., etc.

Repeating the ad hominem "you just like guns" in the face of actual reasons for owning a firearm gets tiresome.

And MA has one of the lowest murder and violent crime rates despite being in the higher end of the population density. Be nice if more states had MA's laws and regulations.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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