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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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31-05-2015, 07:14 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
These arguments only take place with Americans. The rest of the civilised world understands. Perhaps Somalians agree with Americans..

Who the hell wants to live in Somalia?

I love Americans, but jeez they are funny. Smile

I'm a great shot. But who needs guns in this city? In the bush I would have guns.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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31-05-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 07:04 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The bible itself is a tangible object capable of being studied. Which is why I didn't say they understood a god better, but the bible.

Which Bible? And whose interpretation? The object is still so nebulous that your analogy is useless ... and we haven't even gotten to cherry-picking.
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31-05-2015, 08:38 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 07:14 AM)Banjo Wrote:  These arguments only take place with Americans. The rest of the civilised world understands. Perhaps Somalians agree with Americans..

Who the hell wants to live in Somalia?

I love Americans, but jeez they are funny. Smile

I'm a great shot. But who needs guns in this city? In the bush I would have guns.

That's the thing. I do live out in the country. Out here, a gun is a tool. Being told that I want a gun for this or that reason by someone who doesn't live as I do is enervating insofar as no one likes being the object of uncharitable assumptions.

By the way, be it known that I do not now own a gun.
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31-05-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 08:38 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(31-05-2015 07:14 AM)Banjo Wrote:  These arguments only take place with Americans. The rest of the civilised world understands. Perhaps Somalians agree with Americans..

Who the hell wants to live in Somalia?

I love Americans, but jeez they are funny. Smile

I'm a great shot. But who needs guns in this city? In the bush I would have guns.

That's the thing. I do live out in the country. Out here, a gun is a tool. Being told that I want a gun for this or that reason by someone who doesn't live as I do is enervating insofar as no one likes being the object of uncharitable assumptions.

By the way, be it known that I do not now own a gun.

I have no problem with bushmen and women owning guns.

However, we all know this is not they reason Americans, at least some, love guns.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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31-05-2015, 08:57 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 08:35 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(31-05-2015 07:04 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The bible itself is a tangible object capable of being studied. Which is why I didn't say they understood a god better, but the bible.

Which Bible? And whose interpretation? The object is still so nebulous that your analogy is useless ... and we haven't even gotten to cherry-picking.

Any bible, just like any gun.

Owning or using an object, doesn't qualify you as an expert on it. But a lot of people assume it does.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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31-05-2015, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2015 09:58 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 08:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(31-05-2015 08:35 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Which Bible? And whose interpretation? The object is still so nebulous that your analogy is useless ... and we haven't even gotten to cherry-picking.

Any bible, just like any gun.

Owning or using an object, doesn't qualify you as an expert on it. But a lot of people assume it does.

The comparison is inapt. A bible is words, subject to interpretation, and supportive of many opinions which are often contradictory. The principles of gunnery are pretty well-established and standardized. And even if that weren't the case, your point still wouldn't hold, because you're behaving as if book knowledge of gunnery is as good as personal experience with gunnery, and it isn't.

And you've yet to address the point I was making with that question, which was that many people who have never touched a gun are vociferously anti-gun precisely because they are uneducated in the field -- because they've never touched a gun, don't know how a model of gun operates, don't understand the terminology and principles involved. It's attitudinal, and while it isn't the case with you, it is with many, many others, and denying that is silly.
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31-05-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 08:42 AM)Banjo Wrote:  However, we all know this is not they reason Americans, at least some, love guns.

Of course not, and I'm not arguing against the fact that many gun-owners own them for impractical reasons such as self-image and whatnot.
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31-05-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
You don't learn to swim by reading about it on the internet.

Exposure to the craft is necessary.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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31-05-2015, 10:11 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 09:55 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(31-05-2015 08:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Any bible, just like any gun.

Owning or using an object, doesn't qualify you as an expert on it. But a lot of people assume it does.

The comparison is inapt. A bible is words, subject to interpretation, and supportive of many opinions which are often contradictory. The principles of gunnery are pretty well-established and standardized. And even if that weren't the case, your point still wouldn't hold, because you're behaving as if book knowledge of gunnery is as good as personal experience with gunnery, and it isn't.

And you've yet to address the point I was making with that question which wass that many people who have never touched a gun are vociferously anti-gun precisely because they are uneducated in the field because they've never touched a gun. It's attitudinal, and while it isn't the case with you, it is with many, many others, and denying that is silly.

1) my point is still valid and my comparison is pretty straightforward. People assume because they have used something or think they understand something, that they are somehow an expert on it. So, a pro-gun individual claiming that owning and using guns makes them more qualified on gun control, is as fallacious as saying that being a Christian who reads the bible makes someone more qualified as an expert on the bible.

2) I don't know know where your generalization that "...that many people who have never touched a gun are vociferously anti-gun precisely because they are uneducated in the field..." comes from. I know very few people who are "anti-gun" but do know some who are for better laws and restrictions and regulations. And those I know of are gun owners or have used guns at some point in their lives.

If your point is that in countries with very few guns the people in those countries don't tend to side with pro-gun sentiments or people in places where guns are not common in the U.S. don't sympathize with pro-gun sentiments, are you surprised by that? It would be like a person growing up non-religious and never really being exposed to religion or religious texts not caring about religion, and then not liking it when Jehovah's witnesses came knocking on their door peddling mythology.

The points I'm trying to make are:
1) doing something or owning something (whether you think it is a subjective object or subject or not) doesn't quality you as an expert on it. Nor does it insulate you from criticism if someone critiques your views who does not personally own said object or has experienced whatever it is you've experienced.

This is why we have an education system after all instead of just an experience system. And no, I'm not saying it's the education that qualifies someone as an expert either. But it doesn't mean their opinion is by default less valuable or meaningful.

Sometimes experience does trump knowledge, but that typically comes as a result of educating oneself while attaining that experience. For guns, using a gun or owning a gun has no inherent reason to cause someone to suddenly be more informed on gun laws or legislation or statistics, etc. Just like owning and using a rock hammer to remove fossils from a rock doesn't make someone a paleontologist and suddenly aware of evolution, macroevolutionary trends, mass extinction, sedimentology, stratigraphy, geochemistry, etc.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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31-05-2015, 10:15 AM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(31-05-2015 10:11 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(31-05-2015 09:55 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The comparison is inapt. A bible is words, subject to interpretation, and supportive of many opinions which are often contradictory. The principles of gunnery are pretty well-established and standardized. And even if that weren't the case, your point still wouldn't hold, because you're behaving as if book knowledge of gunnery is as good as personal experience with gunnery, and it isn't.

And you've yet to address the point I was making with that question which wass that many people who have never touched a gun are vociferously anti-gun precisely because they are uneducated in the field because they've never touched a gun. It's attitudinal, and while it isn't the case with you, it is with many, many others, and denying that is silly.

1) my point is still valid and my comparison is pretty straightforward. People assume because they have used something or think they understand something, that they are somehow an expert on it. So, a pro-gun individual claiming that owning and using guns makes them more qualified on gun control, is as fallacious as saying that being a Christian who reads the bible makes someone more qualified as an expert on the bible.

2) I don't know know where your generalization that "...that many people who have never touched a gun are vociferously anti-gun precisely because they are uneducated in the field..." comes from. I know very few people who are "anti-gun" but do know some who are for better laws and restrictions and regulations. And those I know of are gun owners or have used guns at some point in their lives.

If your point is that in countries with very few guns the people in those countries don't tend to side with pro-gun sentiments or people in places where guns are not common in the U.S. don't sympathize with pro-gun sentiments, are you surprised by that? It would be like a person growing up non-religious and never really being exposed to religion or religious texts not caring about religion, and then not liking it when Jehovah's witnesses came knocking on their door peddling mythology.

The points I'm trying to make are:
1) doing something or owning something (whether you think it is a subjective object or subject or not) doesn't quality you as an expert on it. Nor does it insulate you from criticism if someone critiques your views who does not personally own said object or has experienced whatever it is you've experienced.

This is why we have an education system after all instead of just an experience system. And no, I'm not saying it's the education that qualifies someone as an expert either. But it doesn't mean their opinion is by default less valuable or meaningful.

Sometimes experience does trump knowledge, but that typically comes as a result of educating oneself while attaining that experience. For guns, using a gun or owning a gun has no inherent reason to cause someone to suddenly be more informed on gun laws or legislation or statistics, etc. Just like owning and using a rock hammer to remove fossils from a rock doesn't make someone a paleontologist and suddenly aware of evolution, macroevolutionary trends, mass extinction, sedimentology, stratigraphy, geochemistry, etc.

And on my fossil comparison, people get very offended (just like with the guns) when I tell them they don't have a fossil or that whatever they have found has no inherent value or ask them for information necessary for identification like where it was found and lithology, etc.

It's also an interesting comparison. It isn't my experience in the field looking at rocks and fossils that helps me determine they don't have a fossil, it's my education (most times) that enables me to tell them the bad news.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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