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"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
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13-04-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, I do.


The restrictions where I live are already pretty tight and I have gone through that process.

There have been several threads on firearms here. I have always advocated for reasonable restrictions, safety training, safe gun storage, etc., etc.

Repeating the ad hominem "you just like guns" in the face of actual reasons for owning a firearm gets tiresome.

And MA has one of the lowest murder and violent crime rates despite being in the higher end of the population density. Be nice if more states had MA's laws and regulations.

Yes, the reasonable ones. Massachusetts also has some unreasonable ones.

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13-04-2015, 05:46 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And MA has one of the lowest murder and violent crime rates despite being in the higher end of the population density. Be nice if more states had MA's laws and regulations.

Yes, the reasonable ones. Massachusetts also has some unreasonable ones.

I don't know them all, I don't imagine many people do. Simpler and streamlined that put the onus on the user of the guns such that they are better trained and more responsible is the way to go.

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13-04-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, there are other issues involved in this too which include training and regulation. Also a reason why trying to compare crime rates in the U.S. to other countries with high gun ownership rates is hard.
Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.
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13-04-2015, 05:53 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, there are other issues involved in this too which include training and regulation. Also a reason why trying to compare crime rates in the U.S. to other countries with high gun ownership rates is hard.
Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

The stats I've quoted are gun ownership, not numbers of guns en masse but number of people with guns.

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13-04-2015, 05:55 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, there are other issues involved in this too which include training and regulation. Also a reason why trying to compare crime rates in the U.S. to other countries with high gun ownership rates is hard.
Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

But this is another good and valid point. People who claim to need guns to protect themselves against the government, are quite literally saying that they may need their guns to kill soldiers and cops. I find that deplorable and stupid. If the government becomes tyrannical, do people really think the military and cops are just going to go "okay, time to round up civilians and friends and family."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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13-04-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

Only the crazy posses actually think that way.

The rational interpretation of what biker said is that a government won't even attempt to impose tyranny on an armed population.

History shows that disarming the populace is always present in a totalitarian agenda.

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13-04-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, there are other issues involved in this too which include training and regulation. Also a reason why trying to compare crime rates in the U.S. to other countries with high gun ownership rates is hard.
Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
(13-04-2015 05:22 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Gun ownership has never been about hunting.

Self protection is a secondary consideration.

The primary reason for gun ownership ---

Dictatorships and repressive regimes do away with private weapons, first thing.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

.......................................

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13-04-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 06:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  The rational interpretation of what biker said is that a government won't even attempt to impose tyranny on an armed population.

History shows that disarming the populace is always present in a totalitarian agenda.

Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, and China all come to mind.....

Huge monolithic governments that don't trust it's subjects....

.......................................

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13-04-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: "More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 05:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The stats I've quoted are gun ownership, not numbers of guns en masse but number of people with guns.
I think it is hard to get reasonable stats. Both sides play a propoganda game.
I would like to know how many homes have hand guns, because crimes are generally carried out with hand guns due to their concealable nature.
I'd like to know how many homes have semi-auto rifles such as AR-15, Bushmaster. I consider an owner of 0.22 and 0.308 and shotgun to be more interested in hunting vermin or game animals but an owner of AR-15, Bushmaster to be more likely to have more interested in war and heroics when compared to the other rifle owners.
Also it would be interesting to know how many homes have more handguns than adult occupants.
I would also be interested to know how easy it is for a criminal to get their hands on a handgun, and if general citizen ownership makes this easier for them.
And how many murders are performed by people without prior criminal records.

We had an anniversary day in NZ not long ago and I had a discussion with an Armed Offender Police officer. I was asking him if he came across pistols much and he said no. Most raids they do, the people don't have guns, occasionally they might have a rifle or a sawn off shotgun, but pistols were rare to encounter.
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13-04-2015, 06:19 PM
"More Guns means Safer" the nonsensical pro-NRA argument
(13-04-2015 06:11 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Another factor bluring the gun ownership rates is that there are many USA citizens who own many guns. If a person already owns 12 hand guns and buys 5 more, the 5 extra aren't going to make that individual any more dangerous than they already are with their first 12 guns.
If you are arming yourself in order to combat your own police force and your own army and you live in a first world democratic country, then really, I think you are either overly paranoid, have a huge chip on your shoulder, are into illegal activities, are aggressive or are brainwashed by those who want to make a profit by selling guns.

We don't arm ourselves to combat our own citizens - including the police - who are also our citizens.

We keep guns legal - because we trust ourselves.

Those who don't trust themselves and others, want to restrict gun ownership.

Gun ownership is exactly the opposite of paranoia.

Are you scared of your neighbor owning guns???

Doesn't that make YOU paranoid???

You're not making any sense. But you haven't yet so that's not surprising.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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