More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
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08-08-2015, 09:43 AM
More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
Where did the notion that man should serve god come from?

As a self-interested human species we should I think have evolved a notion that god should serve mankind, not its inverse. But the prevailing theme in the monotheistic religions is that inverse - that we exist to serve the god, that our sole purpose is to serve the god. How did that come about?

It's particularly baffling when religion's principal implement, prayer, is never used to help the god, it's always invoked to try to get the god to do something man wants, to serve man. THAT is in accord with what a self-interested species would do, but why pretend its opposite?

It's hopeless to expect a theist to answer this, but only a theist can answer it. I guess, like a god, it will always be a mystery.
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08-08-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
In the Enuma Elish (where many scholars think Genesis originated from), man was created for use as a slave or helper by Marduk (god) so that the other gods could rest.
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08-08-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
Expecting "god" to serve man - is like me looking around the mess in the bedroom - and complaining "The damned maid didn't show up again"....

See -- if you're going to wait for some fictitious being (or maid) to take care of shit - you're gonna be disappointed....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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08-08-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
I think we have evolved, as social primates, a large number of people (if I recall correctly, the number is something like 80-85%) who genetically are predisposed to a psychological need to be ruled. Religion takes advantage of this brain architecture. "God" is the ultimate expression of the need to have an ultimate Alpha.

It's also one of the reasons atheists, who reject that concept fiercely, are considered so dangerous both by the charlatans who do the ruling and by their flocks, almost instinctively. At best, we're baffling, at worst, we need to be eliminated, as they see it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
(08-08-2015 09:43 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Where did the notion that man should serve god come from?
Don't do it! It's a cookbook! Gasp

Sorry, got a little carried away there...

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08-08-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
(08-08-2015 09:43 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Where did the notion that man should serve god come from?

As a self-interested human species we should I think have evolved a notion that god should serve mankind, not its inverse. But the prevailing theme in the monotheistic religions is that inverse - that we exist to serve the god, that our sole purpose is to serve the god. How did that come about?

It's particularly baffling when religion's principal implement, prayer, is never used to help the god, it's always invoked to try to get the god to do something man wants, to serve man. THAT is in accord with what a self-interested species would do, but why pretend its opposite?

It's hopeless to expect a theist to answer this, but only a theist can answer it. I guess, like a god, it will always be a mystery.

So I read the first part and thought ... what about 'intercessory prayer'? and then "oh bugger! he thought of that already". So, OK, Islam and christianity go for the slave / submission thing ... fair enough but...

(08-08-2015 09:50 AM)jennybee Wrote:  In the Enuma Elish (where many scholars think Genesis originated from), man was created for use as a slave or helper by Marduk (god) so that the other gods could rest.

... but, the Hebrew tradition evolved the idea of the covenant: an agreement / let's make a deal, already.

God said "hey guys? Do me a favour and keep this bit of turf neat and tidy and I'll watch your back."

So, mutual service providers rather than slaves.

Consider

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08-08-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
(08-08-2015 10:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 09:43 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Where did the notion that man should serve god come from?

As a self-interested human species we should I think have evolved a notion that god should serve mankind, not its inverse. But the prevailing theme in the monotheistic religions is that inverse - that we exist to serve the god, that our sole purpose is to serve the god. How did that come about?

It's particularly baffling when religion's principal implement, prayer, is never used to help the god, it's always invoked to try to get the god to do something man wants, to serve man. THAT is in accord with what a self-interested species would do, but why pretend its opposite?

It's hopeless to expect a theist to answer this, but only a theist can answer it. I guess, like a god, it will always be a mystery.

So I read the first part and thought ... what about 'intercessory prayer'? and then "oh bugger! he thought of that already". So, OK, Islam and christianity go for the slave / submission thing ... fair enough but...

(08-08-2015 09:50 AM)jennybee Wrote:  In the Enuma Elish (where many scholars think Genesis originated from), man was created for use as a slave or helper by Marduk (god) so that the other gods could rest.

... but, the Hebrew tradition evolved the idea of the covenant: an agreement / let's make a deal, already.

God said "hey guys? Do me a favour and keep this bit of turf neat and tidy and I'll watch your back."

So, mutual service providers rather than slaves.

Consider


In the Mosaic Covenant, if we are good and do what God says we get blessings, if we are disobedient, we get curses. We have to do what God says and do things the way he wants them done or the end result is plagues/smiting/famine etc. etc.

There are definitely differences between the Enuma Elish and the Bible. But the idea of man created by God for god is pretty much the same idea.
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08-08-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
God's filled in the blanks for many people.

Let's look at ancient Egypt for example.

Normally the Pharaoh was considered a god incarnate. He was given credit for making the sun rise and set. If it rained, so they could have crops. And who would get to go into the after life. Since these gods had control over important these aspects of their world, people tended to want to survive. The only way to get these things was to make offerings. Weather it was a blood sacrifice, personal sacrifice, or praise.

Or it threw false association.
"Hey I did this dance and it rained. So who ever controls the rain must like this dance. So the more I do it the more it will rain."

In a way gods where working for us. We felt that would made a deal with whatever god you wanted a favor from. Want love pay tidings to Hathor and she will give it to you. What a to win a battle make a sacrifice to Horus. Greeks did the same thing with Venus, Mars, Zues etc.

YHWH is no different. The old testament talks about offerings to YHWH all the time. You have to do _______ to make me happy and I will give you _________. Cain and Abel is the first one to pop to mind. A burnt lamb offering, and a grain offering. Or the Burnt offering Noah did (just after he "saved" all the fucking animals) when the waters reseeded. YHWH loves blood. Even Jesus blood.

So my point I'm trying to make is it's more of a transaction deal. We have to give something to the God and it in return gives us something we ask for. Gods are held to a higher position because they have/had something we needed.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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08-08-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
(08-08-2015 12:14 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  God's filled in the blanks for many people.

Let's look at ancient Egypt for example.

Normally the Pharaoh was considered a god incarnate. He was given credit for making the sun rise and set. If it rained, so they could have crops. And who would get to go into the after life. Since these gods had control over important these aspects of their world, people tended to want to survive. The only way to get these things was to make offerings. Weather it was a blood sacrifice, personal sacrifice, or praise.

Or it threw false association.
"Hey I did this dance and it rained. So who ever controls the rain must like this dance. So the more I do it the more it will rain."

In a way gods where working for us. We felt that would made a deal with whatever god you wanted a favor from. Want love pay tidings to Hathor and she will give it to you. What a to win a battle make a sacrifice to Horus. Greeks did the same thing with Venus, Mars, Zues etc.

YHWH is no different. The old testament talks about offerings to YHWH all the time. You have to do _______ to make me happy and I will give you _________. Cain and Abel is the first one to pop to mind. A burnt lamb offering, and a grain offering. Or the Burnt offering Noah did (just after he "saved" all the fucking animals) when the waters reseeded. YHWH loves blood. Even Jesus blood.

So my point I'm trying to make is it's more of a transaction deal. We have to give something to the God and it in return gives us something we ask for. Gods are held to a higher position because they have/had something we needed.

Good points. The whole idea of sacrifice was to appease the gods. The death of Jesus appeased God for all of us awful sinners.
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08-08-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: More Mystery From the Merchants of Mystery
[Image: th?id=JN.VKBEkF9%2f4yhJdyt46TauGQ&am...mp;amp;P=0]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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