More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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19-02-2017, 06:45 PM
More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
So I was talking to my super Christian dad, and he said there is more evidence that Jesus existed than Caesar. I really do not believe this is true at all, but I realized I actually haven't done much close research on this exact topic, so I was wondering if anyone could point me to any good places to research or if anyone has any comments on this. Thank you.
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19-02-2017, 06:51 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Is Evidence for Jesus Really as Good as for Caesar?

He's wrong, but the bigger question is what difference it would make if it were true? If we had complete certainty that the man Jesus existed it would say nothing about whether the supernatural claims were true.

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19-02-2017, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 06:03 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
This apologetic has been bandied about in various forms for decades; most notably the '10/42' style present in many apologetic books (small list and answer to the apologetic here: https://adversusapologetica.wordpress.co...-slogan/).

The fact of the matter is that many of the historical figured Jesus is oft compared to are far more well attested in history than Jesus himself.
How do we know of Julius Caeser? A good number of ways. Least of all being that he left works behind him, most notably his Commentaries on The Gallic Wars. Other sources including the surviving speeches by the Roman politician Cicero, the works by the Roman historians Sallust, Suetonius, and Plutarch, the coins baring his name and face, busts of him which survived, etc.

The best source we have for Jesus outside the New Testament is probably Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, where he chronicles the expansion of the early Christian cult, but concerns exist that Christians may have edited the text later in time.

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19-02-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
For Caesar salad to exist, there has to have been Caesar. I've never had a Jesus salad.

Next.

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19-02-2017, 08:41 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(19-02-2017 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Is Evidence for Jesus Really as Good as for Caesar?

He's wrong, but the bigger question is what difference it would make if it were true? If we had complete certainty that the man Jesus existed it would say nothing about whether the supernatural claims were true.

That is a very good point, but I think for someone like my dad, or other Christians who don't really think about their religion in reasonable terms, perhaps they think well if there is so much evidence and all these stories about Jesus doing supernatural things then it must be true right?
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19-02-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(19-02-2017 07:58 PM)yakherder Wrote:  For Caesar salad to exist, there has to have been Caesar. I've never had a Jesus salad.

Next.

Haha! My dad will find that amusing.
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19-02-2017, 10:12 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Quote:So I was talking to my super Christian dad, and he said there is more evidence that Jesus existed than Caesar.


Your super christian dad doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about. Worse, I suspect he would never consider the possibility that he was wrong.

Ignore him.

However, if you are interested.

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7862

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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19-02-2017, 10:48 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(19-02-2017 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Is Evidence for Jesus Really as Good as for Caesar?

He's wrong, but the bigger question is what difference it would make if it were true? If we had complete certainty that the man Jesus existed it would say nothing about whether the supernatural claims were true.

Absolutely.

And if there is sufficient evidence for belief, then there is no need for "faith". Can't have it both ways.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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20-02-2017, 06:57 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(19-02-2017 08:41 PM)of the gray Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Is Evidence for Jesus Really as Good as for Caesar?

He's wrong, but the bigger question is what difference it would make if it were true? If we had complete certainty that the man Jesus existed it would say nothing about whether the supernatural claims were true.

That is a very good point, but I think for someone like my dad, or other Christians who don't really think about their religion in reasonable terms, perhaps they think well if there is so much evidence and all these stories about Jesus doing supernatural things then it must be true right?

That is true, but it is a point that can be worth pressing. The stories about Caesar include his being a god and the Japanese emperor is claimed to be descended from gods and many similar tales exist. Look at claims by followers of Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Sun Myung Moon... all recent cult leaders who supposedly performed miracles in front of witnesses. While we agree that the people are real, the supernatural parts need more justification.

Even at a mundane level, the stories of Washington chopping down a cherry tree or throwing a silver dollar across the Potomac are considered to be mythical even though we are abut as certain as we can be that Washington himself actually existed.

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20-02-2017, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 07:35 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Carrier, Price, and Fitzgerald all have multiple videos on YouTube. There are also multiple threads here discussing the topic.
There is no "smoking gun", one way or the other ... but many suspicious possibilities for the skeptical.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

There were many Jesuses. It's very possible one of them was the guy implicated. There is no way to know, for certain if one of them was the basis for later myth invention. We'll never know for sure.
One of them was even announced by Gabriel, died and was said to rise after three days. But he was not "Jesus of Nazareth".
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...n-display/

For me, the most suspicious thing, (besides the mythical literary format of the gospels, which Carrier discusses), is that the content of the gospel's "preaching" (ie the "golden rule" ... *do unto others*) reflects a very specific period in post-temple destruction (Rabbinic) Judaism's discussions and interest, which was late 1st and early 2nd Century, not early 1st Century, as they tried to *whittle down* all the Jewish laws to their most most basic format, when they tried to figure out what it meant to be a Jew after the temple was destroyed, and the Diaspora was underway. We know for a fact that the story as we got it is false, as in late 1st Century, the Jewish High Priest required the "expulsion curses"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim
http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Bulletin/59=...0Klink.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_II
to be read in the synagogues, thus the members of the "Way" (Christians), at least in Israel, were still very much Jews. In his Christmas sermon in the year 400 CE, (St.) John Chrysostom (there is a known copy of that sermon), preaching, told his congregation in Constantinople, where he was archbishop, to STOP going to synagogue. Whatever was going on, was not the simplistic "poof, and then Christianity arose" crap they would have us believe. There were multiple "christianities" in multiple places, and communication was very poor at that time.
You can also read the proceedings of the councils, (on Fordham University's site) if you want to bore yourself to death, and watch as they "invent" (argue, fight, and VOTE on) what became Christian "orthodoxy".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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