More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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20-02-2017, 04:35 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 04:14 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Caesar was honored with his image on coins.

Jesus got his image on a Roman torture device.

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20-02-2017, 05:07 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 03:28 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Josephus' little paragraph is a forgery.

I wasn't even talking about the contested portion of Josephus, but that uncontested one, about James.


Quote:===None of the early church fathers who read Josephus writings mention that passage.

The James passage is mentioned by Origen, in fact Origen also points out that Josephus didn't believe Jesus was the Christ as well.

Quote:potato that they'd jump all over any reference to Jesus if it had been there.

Why would they? To defend themselves against arguments made by atheists 2000 years later? To defend themselves against a non-existent mythicist/ahistoricist arguments of the time?

Quote:Pilate didn't claim to be a god.

Caesar did though.


Quote:Once again, you have the creator of the universe walking around, the God directly out of the Bible is walking and talking and inspiring everyone and astonishing multitudes by defying the physics of the known world and yet no one stops to write about it until several decades later. Yeah.....sure.

Ah huh. When atheists start losing the historical argument, they tend to shift the argument, to one about Jesus's divinity, away for his historicity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 05:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 03:28 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Josephus' little paragraph is a forgery.

I wasn't even talking about the contested portion of Josephus, but that uncontested one, about James.


Quote:===None of the early church fathers who read Josephus writings mention that passage.

The James passage is mentioned by Origen, in fact Origen also points out that Josephus didn't believe Jesus was the Christ as well.

Quote:potato that they'd jump all over any reference to Jesus if it had been there.

Why would they? To defend themselves against arguments made by atheists 2000 years later? To defend themselves against a non-existent mythicist/ahistoricist arguments of the time?

Quote:Pilate didn't claim to be a god.

Caesar did though.


Quote:Once again, you have the creator of the universe walking around, the God directly out of the Bible is walking and talking and inspiring everyone and astonishing multitudes by defying the physics of the known world and yet no one stops to write about it until several decades later. Yeah.....sure.

Ah huh. When atheists start losing the historical argument, they tend to shift the argument, to one about Jesus's divinity, away for his historicity.

You totally ignored my sources for Julius Caesar by his contemporaries. And by the way, all ceasars were considered gods. Most of it was nonsense and the general Roman population knew it was too.

One more time. Here's God walking around, his fame was "known as far as Syria" and nobody wrote about it. Multitudes witnessed his amazing miracles....nobody wrote about. He dies, the sun disappears for three hours, big huge earthquake happens, people climb out of their graves and walk around a bustling city and guess what.....nobody wrote about it.......until decades later..........after two generations of storytelling. Hummmm.

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20-02-2017, 06:03 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Quote:I wasn't even talking about the contested portion of Josephus, but that uncontested one, about James.


What you think is "uncontested" is highly contested. Sorry to burst your sorry little jesus bubble.

No - I'm not.

Quote:•James passage unknown to Origen (despite search of Josephus for Jesus material)
•Origen mistook a story in Hegesippus as being in Josephus (Carrier 2012)
•All other accounts of the death of James the brother of Jesus do not match Josephus
•Acts used Josephus, yet never noticed this (despite Jews punished for persecuting Christians)
•Josephus would explain things; only a Christian would just assume they were known (e.g. what a “Christ” was; that James was a Christian; that Jews sought to kill Christians; why the Jewish elite and Roman authorities opposed the killing of James if he was a Christian)
•The words tou legomenou christou , “the one called Christ,” likely a marginal note (by Origen or Pamphilus or another scribe or scholar in their library), expressing belief rather than fact
•That note was then accidentally interpolated into the ms. produced or used by Eusebius (which would have been a copy of the one used by Origen)
•Possibly replacing ton tou damnaiou , “the son of Damneus” (repetition of that phrase a few lines after may have led a scribe to suspect the marginal note was correcting a dittograph)
•All arguments against interpolation have assumed the entire passage was interpolated (not just the one phrase) and that it was deliberate (instead of accidental or conjectural).

http://www.richardcarrier.info/testimonium.pdf?x23333

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20-02-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 05:39 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  One more time. Here's God walking around, his fame was "known as far as Syria" and nobody wrote about it. Multitudes witnessed his amazing miracles....nobody wrote about. He dies, the sun disappears for three hours, big huge earthquake happens, people climb out of their graves and walk around a bustling city and guess what.....nobody wrote about it.......until decades later..........after two generations of storytelling. Hummmm.

Again, when atheists start losing the argument regarding historicity, they retreat to arguing about Jesus's divinity, and supposed miracles, lol.

Notice the acknowledging of Ceaser existing, doesn't require you to accept any of his divine attributes, of the various supernatural, extravert acts attached to him.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 06:03 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  What you think is "uncontested" is highly contested. Sorry to burst your sorry little jesus bubble.

No - I'm not.

No, it isn't doofus, "Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" -wikipedia

You sound like a creationist claiming evolution is highly contested, because their fringe doesn't accept it.


Quote:•Josephus would explain things; only a Christian would just assume they were known (e.g. what a “Christ” was; that James was a Christian; that Jews sought to kill Christians; why the Jewish elite and Roman authorities opposed the killing of James if he was a Christian)

No doofus, every Jew would have known what "Christ" means, i.e Messiah, and likely many Romans, aware of Jewish expectations at the time. And you clearly haven't read the passage, because it indicates why he was stoned as well.

But go ahead, continue on you with your sloppy ass reasoning, continue with your mental gymnastics to explain the passage a way. I'm guessing this is the nonsense that passes for critical/skeptical/rational thinking among these parts?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Why does this not post in it's entirety? I posted this earlier but it doesn't show up.

(20-02-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 07:24 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  How do we know of Julius Caeser? A good number of ways. Least of all being that he left works behind him, most notably his Commentaries on The Gallic Wars.

Yea, but we don't know he wrote it, somebody could pretended to be a fictional Caesar writing the account, a point made likely by the fact that it's written in a third person narrative.

See the gospels. The exact same thing can be said.

(20-02-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Writers commonly pretended to be other people to gain recognition at that time.

See half of Paul's epistles, James, Peters, Revelation.....

(20-02-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Fictional characters were also given speeches as well. Most likely Ceaser originated as a myth of a God king, and attributed sayings and feats. We also have coins of non-existing God-kinds as well.

Likely much of we have regarding Ceaser was created by the Roman religions cult of Empire, interweaving mythological elements, with fictional realistic elements, to produce what we have now.

Now apply this to Jesus. Also, are you saying Caesar is fictional?

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20-02-2017, 07:17 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Jesus is irrelevant to the religion that bears his name today, so who gives a fuck if he lived or not?
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20-02-2017, 07:17 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm guessing this is the nonsense that passes for critical/skeptical/rational thinking among these parts?

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20-02-2017, 07:18 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 06:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again, when atheists start losing the argument regarding historicity, they retreat to arguing about Jesus's divinity, and supposed miracles, lol.

Notice the acknowledging of Ceaser existing, doesn't require you to accept any of his divine attributes, of the various supernatural, extravert acts attached to him.

And when Tomato has nothing, he reverts to making up generalizations about atheists, cuz that was what they taught him in fake-religion school.

Please learn how to spell Caesar. Facepalm
What are "extravert acts" ? Pray tell ?

LOL is it ?

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