More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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20-02-2017, 08:33 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
The gospel authors don't even claim to be eye witness accounts, and the scholarly consensus is that the stories were written decades after the event. It's unlikely the authors were alive at the time.

But anyhow, I wouldn't care if you had a thousand accounts from people who were guaranteed to be eye witnesses. That's still not enough to establish that Jesus was anything other than a normal human. And I don't think anyone really gives a fuck about that.

I don't give a fuck even if he was God, personally. Dumb bitch turned himself into a dude and got strung up. Now he's dead. He kind of dropped the ball.

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20-02-2017, 09:07 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 09:11 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 07:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Now all you have to do is prove it is what you claim it is.
You can't, and you know it.

It's an eye-witness, first hand-account by the very nature of it, not sure what I'm suppose to be proving.
So prove what, that the writer didn't fabricate the whole thing? Sure once you prove to me that the writers regarding Caeser life didn't fabricate the whole thing. Or that the Gaelic Wars was actually written by Caesar.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 09:09 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 08:47 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I recommend reading Nailed by David Fitzgerald. Great book on the lack of evidence for Jesus and how, as another poster mentioned, some of the historical writings on Jesus were tweaked later on. So yeah, Fitzgerald pretty much rips all of that to shreds.

Peddling Mythicism 101? Sadcryface Granted, Fitzgerald would be more accessible a read than Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus. Plus if it's anything like his Mormon book, the snark is real.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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20-02-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 06:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 05:39 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  One more time. Here's God walking around, his fame was "known as far as Syria" and nobody wrote about it. Multitudes witnessed his amazing miracles....nobody wrote about. He dies, the sun disappears for three hours, big huge earthquake happens, people climb out of their graves and walk around a bustling city and guess what.....nobody wrote about it.......until decades later..........after two generations of storytelling. Hummmm.

Again, when atheists start losing the argument regarding historicity, they retreat to arguing about Jesus's divinity, and supposed miracles, lol.

Notice the acknowledging of Ceaser existing, doesn't require you to accept any of his divine attributes, of the various supernatural, extravert acts attached to him.

If we were encouraged from childhood to worship Caesar and go to Caesar Church and have people shove Caesarism down our throats you bet I'd want incontrovertible evidence of his divinity. I'd require several things. I'd want his contemporaries and his enemies to provide proof of his divinity and supernatural attributes. I'd want absolute proof. However as it is, we have contemporary evidence of Caesar's battles and letters he wrote to others, coins which were struck during his lifetime and other corroborating evidence of his military career.

We have nothing of Jesus. Nothing. If he did exist, and he might have, no one was inspired enough to write them down until the stories got told and retold by superstitious people for two generations. Then someone started writing the Jesus stories down. I'm not impressed.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-02-2017, 10:30 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 09:09 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 08:47 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I recommend reading Nailed by David Fitzgerald. Great book on the lack of evidence for Jesus and how, as another poster mentioned, some of the historical writings on Jesus were tweaked later on. So yeah, Fitzgerald pretty much rips all of that to shreds.

Peddling Mythicism 101? Sadcryface Granted, Fitzgerald would be more accessible a read than Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus. Plus if it's anything like his Mormon book, the snark is real.

There is as much to support mythicism as there is to support a real Jesus of Nazareth, and far more than there is to support the character in the Gospels.
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20-02-2017, 11:26 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 11:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 09:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 07:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Now all you have to do is prove it is what you claim it is.
You can't, and you know it.

It's an eye-witness, first hand-account by the very nature of it, not sure what I'm suppose to be proving.
So prove what, that the writer didn't fabricate the whole thing? Sure once you prove to me that the writers regarding Caeser life didn't fabricate the whole thing. Or that the Gaelic Wars was actually written by Caesar.

YOU asked for "scientific evidence" for Caesar. THAT is your stated standard.

"It's an eye-witness, first hand-account by the very nature of it " is circular nonsense, and meaningless. Caesar and this claim are unrelated EXCEPT you stated what your standard is.
You CLAIM it's an eye-witness account. Provide the scientific EVIDENCE (YOUR stated standard) for it. It's an unsupported assertion. You're supposed to provide scientific evidence that it happened and is true. Very simple. Stop waffling widdle Tomato, you cwafty wabbit with the big wabbit hole.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-02-2017, 11:35 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 11:39 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
I've looked into this matter a lot, so I'd like to share my understanding of the mythicist position:

Any definition of a "historical Jesus" for which specific claims are made, is either (a) wholly unsupported by evidence if the claims are strong, or (b) so vague that it would be impossible to pin it down to one single person. There were almost certainly hundreds of people around that time that you could very roughly identify some part of the story with, and calling any one of those a "historical Jesus" is rather arbitrary and pointless. It's not about saying, "No one like this ever existed at all".

My personal position is leaning towards mythicism. I think the story probably contains a small element of truth from several different real people mixed together, but is otherwise entirely fictional. Trying to hang the whole story on one distinct historical figure, even minus the magic bullshit, is a farce. The evidence is just not there.

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21-02-2017, 04:44 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 11:35 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I've looked into this matter a lot, so I'd like to share my understanding of the mythicist position:

Any definition of a "historical Jesus" for which specific claims are made, is either (a) wholly unsupported by evidence if the claims are strong, or (b) so vague that it would be impossible to pin it down to one single person. There were almost certainly hundreds of people around that time that you could very roughly identify some part of the story with, and calling any one of those a "historical Jesus" is rather arbitrary and pointless. It's not about saying, "No one like this ever existed at all".

My personal position is leaning towards mythicism. I think the story probably contains a small element of truth from several different real people mixed together, but is otherwise entirely fictional. Trying to hang the whole story on one distinct historical figure, even minus the magic bullshit, is a farce. The evidence is just not there.
Fantastic post as always Rob, you've just described my thoughts on this almost perfectly. I cannot be 100% certain of course but like you I lean quite heavily towards mythicism. Thumbsup
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21-02-2017, 05:31 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Thank you very much Smile

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21-02-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 11:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You CLAIM it's an eye-witness account.

No, it's not a claim, it's fact. It is an eye-witness/first hand account, by it's very nature. You're the one claiming it's not to be trusted, fabricated, etc... not me.


Quote:Provide the scientific EVIDENCE (YOUR stated standard) for it. It's an unsupported assertion. You're supposed to provide scientific evidence that it happened and is true. Very simple. Stop waffling widdle Tomato, you cwafty wabbit with the big wabbit hole.

No scientific evidence is your standard, not mine. There is no scientific evidence for Caesar or Jesus, just historical evidence.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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