More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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23-02-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Consider Did Toxic Tom ™ just get pwned ? Certainly seems like it. Popcorn
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23-02-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 10:24 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Consider Did Toxic Tom ™ just get pwned ? Certainly seems like it. Popcorn

This is actually a common occurrence, but tomato denies, obfuscates, constructs straw men, and hurls about insults as a response as opposed to being able to accept his ignorance Drinking Beverage

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23-02-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(22-02-2017 09:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, Philo lived several hundred miles away in Alexandria, and indicated that he only visited Jerusalem once in his life time.

Philo's brother, Alexander the Alabarch, according to Josephus, had nine of the gates at the Second Temple in Jerusalem "overlaid with massive plates of silver and gold." So Philo had family ties to Jerusalem. Philo and his brother were wealthy Jews, do you think they never traveled or knew what was going on in Jerusalem?

Hell, according to your storybook, Joseph and Mary traveled to Egypt on a damned lumbering donkey with a babe in arms. You're book is full of characters traveling all over the place but you somehow think Philo didn't travel or know what was happening in the Jewish mecca of Jerusalem. It's ridiculous.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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23-02-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:03 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Philo's brother, Alexander the Alabarch, according to Josephus, had nine of the gates at the Second Temple in Jerusalem "overlaid with massive plates of silver and gold." So Philo had family ties to Jerusalem. Philo and his brother were wealthy Jews, do you think they never traveled or knew what was going on in Jerusalem?

I don't know what it is with Josephus, but he's just making use of the sources and resources of his time. Oral history, told by people several generations removed from the ones supposedly having seen the events. Josephus was Vespasian's court historian in a manner of speaking. Several decades removed from the supposed time of Jesus. Neither Vespasian nor Josephus had been born when the things he wrote about happened. So all he got to go on, in lack of actual historical records, was what people told him. People that hadn't been born at the time either but heard the tales somewhere.

And that's a crucial fact, since historians at the time didn't see themselves in the same way as historians do in modern times. They either painted an ideal or the warned against something. Unthinkable procedures in modern times, but one is well adviced to keep that in mind when dealing with the ancient scripts. There's always the question of when, where and why. When has the record been written, where has it been written and why has it been written.

The same procedure of dealing with texts also extends to our times by the way. There always may be an attempt that tries to twist a record into something that isn't entirely based in reality. Josephus accompanied Vespasian on his campaign against the jewish insurection in the late 60ies. So one has to look at this period in time and his environment to evaluate what he actually wrote.

And again, that's only scratching the surface.
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23-02-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 10:06 AM)abaris Wrote:  Yeah, that's it. You have no clue how to evaluate pieces of literature. That's why they teach history, you know. So that you don't fall for the first text you like and start to hero worship it.

That's it and so much more. What I presented was only scratching the surface. But if you don't even get the meaning of that, you have absolutely no clue of how to deal with history.

lol, you asked me to comment on the reliability of a work (unrelated to NT history), and I indicated I don't know enough about to comment one way or the other, then you went on some rant about nothing. All of it based on asking another poster, as to why he brought up Origen on Josephus not believing Jesus was the messiah.

Apparently a man can't even ask a question around here, without familiarizing himself with a biography of Charlemagne, or the price of tea in China.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-02-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  lol, you asked me to comment on the reliability of a work (unrelated to NT history), and I indicated I don't know enough about to comment one way or the other, then you went on some rant about nothing.

Yes, because the important part wasn't Caroli but Vita. You failed to recognize that which show your complete and utter ignorance of written sources. That's all I needed to know. Someone having at least some basic training in history would have stopped at the word Vita. Which you didn't and you just doubled down on not knowing the importance of that word. So, here you go. I have a university degree in history, you obviously don't even know the basics. So please, don't try to convince me of your bullshit.
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23-02-2017, 11:59 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:24 AM)abaris Wrote:  Yes, because the important part wasn't Caroli but Vita. You failed to recognize that which show your complete and utter ignorance of written sources. That's all I needed to know. Someone having at least some basic training in history would have stopped at the word Vita.

Sorry man, I don't comment on the reliability of a text, without familiarity with the text in question, and not merely based on the title. If that were the case I'd have to claim that Plutarch's Life of Romulus is a reliable, without ever reading it, because it starts with a "Life of", as well as the "Life of Brian.

I also know very little about 9th century French history, and if the topic today were about that, I would be sitting on the side lines, but instead it's about NT history, a subject which I have studied, both academically in my secular college, and elsewhere.

So comment all you want about my ignorance of 9th Century French history.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-02-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 11:24 AM)abaris Wrote:  Yes, because the important part wasn't Caroli but Vita. You failed to recognize that which show your complete and utter ignorance of written sources. That's all I needed to know. Someone having at least some basic training in history would have stopped at the word Vita.

Sorry man, I don't comment on the reliability of a text, without familiarity with the text in question, and not merely based on the title. If that were the case I'd have to claim that Plutarch's Life of Romulus is a reliable, without ever reading it, because it starts with a "Life of", as well as the "Life of Brian.

I also know very little about 9th century French history, and if the topic today were about that, I would be sitting on the side lines, but instead it's about NT history, a subject which I have studied, both academically in my secular college, and elsewhere.

So comment all you want about my ignorance of 9th Century French history.

Abaris' point *whoosh*
Tomato's head

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23-02-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:24 AM)abaris Wrote:  So, here you go. I have a university degree in history, you obviously don't even know the basics. So please, don't try to convince me of your bullshit.

And are you gonna share with us what points or arguments I've made regarding NT history that are bullshit?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-02-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(23-02-2017 11:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I also know very little about 9th century French history.
So comment all you want about my ignorance of 9th Century French history.

Yeah, because its not even French history. Facepalm

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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