More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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26-02-2017, 06:32 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(24-02-2017 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you can draw logic conclusions, what ever data and information that you where able to draw that from, constitute as evidence.

The issue lies in your inability to demonstrate that you are actually drawing a rational conclusion.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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26-02-2017, 08:01 AM
More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 06:32 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  The issue lies in your inability to demonstrate that you are actually drawing a rational conclusion.

Let's see you read a variety accounts about a Jewish messiah claimant, his sayings and teaching, multiply attested to, read a first hand account of someone who met his brother and disciples, read a historian at the time like Josephus writing of his brothers death, read Tacitus indicating that this messiah claimant was crucified under Pilate, and you draw a logical conclusion that this person existed.

Now demonstrate why that's illogical.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-02-2017, 08:07 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Let's see you read a variety accounts about a Jewish messiah claimant, his sayings and teaching, multiply attested to, read a first hand account of someone who met his brother and disciples, read a historian at the time like Josephus writing of his brothers death, read Tacitus indicating that this messiah claimant was crucified under Pilate, and you draw a logical conclusion that this person existed.

Now demonstrate why that's illogical.

All claims.
None of them met him. There is no evidence for him.
Billions of CHRISTIANS say he had no brother.
No way to actually know what person they are talking about.

YOU are not competent to discuss the topic.
Carrier is.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-02-2017, 08:11 AM
More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All claims.
According to you all written sources, whether from historians, first hand/eye witness accounts or not, are claims. The only thing that seems not to be a claim according to your logic is archaeological evidence.

Regardless its rational, reasonable, logical to draw historical conclusions based on written sources, absent or archaeological evidence.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-02-2017, 09:31 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2017 09:34 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  According to you all written sources, whether from historians, first hand/eye witness accounts or not, are claims. The only thing that seems not to be a claim according to your logic is archaeological evidence.

Things written by believers about what they believed are not evidence. You have no proof anything is "first hand", (another claim).

(26-02-2017 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Regardless its rational, reasonable, logical to draw historical conclusions based on written sources, absent or archaeological evidence.

That is not a sentence in the English language. Besides being incapable of writing a coherent sentence in English, you are also incompetent to make pronouncements on any topic.

It totally depends on the nature and reliability of the sources, (which you are not competent to evaluate).

But thanks for telling us you believe in Harry Potter.

..... cue Tomato's atheist insult/generalization du jour.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-02-2017, 09:39 AM
More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 09:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Things written by believers about what they believed are not evidence. You have no proof anything is "first hand", (another claim).

No there's no magical line that excludes the writings of Christians from historical evidence regarding various aspects of their histories.

And Paul writing of meeting Jesus's brother and disciples, indicating the various disputes he had with them is not stating his belief, but giving a first hand accounts of their encounters, and disputes.

Secondly it's not just things written by believers, but written by non-Christian historians as well, Tacitus, and Josephus.

Quote:It totally depends on the nature and reliability of the sources, (which you are not competent to evaluate).

Person x writes of meeting person y, there's no archaeological evidence of their encounter. When would this not be a claim, or belief of person X?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-02-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
It seems to me some people want to say, "If there was no Jesus, then there was no [person X]”.

1) If the evidence for X is as weak as for Jesus, then I'd agree that they probably didn't exist either. If.

2) If there was no person X, I don't care. I'm not talking about person X, and probably haven't looked into the evidence for them very much.

3) If Jesus did exist, I don't care.

4) This in no way ever points back to the conclusion, "Jesus existed". It's a tu quoque.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-02-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Yawn we're going round in circles, time for a silly derailing lets turn this thread into something more amusing on a dreary Sunday evening.... Question.......
Would you have gay sex with Toxic Tom for $1 million ?
Please give reasons why or why not Tongue Big Grin Laugh out load
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26-02-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Quote:So you're refusing to answer a rather simple question, as to whether you agree that there's '"non-scientic" evidence that Jesus existed?

Non-scientific evidence? What can that mean? We don't buy the opinions of later jesus freaks who claim their godboy wandered around doing all sorts of miracles?

Such "evidence" is not worth a puddle of piss.

We have volumes of correspondence from and to Marcus Tullius Cicero. Caesar is mentioned constantly as he was no friend of Cicero's. In your silly godboy's case even his alleged enemies don't seem to know about him. It takes a real asshole to try to conjure up a real person out of a poison stew.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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26-02-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(26-02-2017 11:38 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:So you're refusing to answer a rather simple question, as to whether you agree that there's '"non-scientic" evidence that Jesus existed?

Non-scientific evidence? What can that mean? We don't buy the opinions of later jesus freaks who claim their godboy wandered around doing all sorts of miracles?

Such "evidence" is not worth a puddle of piss.

We have volumes of correspondence from and to Marcus Tullius Cicero. Caesar is mentioned constantly as he was no friend of Cicero's. In your silly godboy's case even his alleged enemies don't seem to know about him. It takes a real asshole to try to conjure up a real person out of a poison stew.
Hence my attempt at humour, as far as I can make out this thread can go no further than it has. My desire is to point out the futility of arguing with this fellow, hence my taking the piss in a manner designed to annoy any fundamentalist christian although a thoroughly silly post it has its basis in pointing out the absurdity of the doctrines amongst Christians, ie intolerance, the belief that they have the right to control others love lives on the basis of a bronze age document etc etc.
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