More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-02-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 12:58 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Tom, wow. Just wow. I really don't understand how you can honestly say what you have been saying and expect to be taken seriously.

It's pretty obvious to me that he is neither being serious nor expecting to be taken seriously. He is just being a dick. Anyone responding to him is just wasting his/her time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Grasshopper's post
20-02-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:16 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Ok, but seriously I am definitely not that smart and it gets me in trouble sometimes but I'm smart enough to realise he's playing a game thank you for correcting me, with decent explanations like yours I'm learning as I go

You're welcome (and give yourself more credit).

Sometimes it is worth poking the trolls a little.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-02-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 12:58 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Tom, wow. Just wow. I really don't understand how you can honestly say what you have been saying and expect to be taken seriously.

It's pretty obvious to me that he is neither being serious nor expecting to be taken seriously. He is just being a dick. Anyone responding to him is just wasting his/her time.

Sometimes there is benefit in poking the trolls a little bit. But yeah, Tomato is just being a dishonest asshole because he can. His only point appears to be: "you people ask me for evidence of my beliefs and I can't provide it, so I'll construct a straw man to ask for evidence of to try and do the same thing to make you feel as dumb as I feel when I say stupid shit I can't support."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
20-02-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 11:39 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You could go through the thought experiments with your dad by imagining the two possibilities and what they mean:
1) Jesus was a real historical figure.
...
2) Jesus was not a real historical figure.
...

You can do the same for two more scenarios:
1) Caesar was not a real historical figure
If so, then we have a bunch of stories about a fictional Roman official that may or may not map to things done by other Roman officials. The effect on our view of world history is pretty negligible.

2) Caesar was a real historical figure
If so, the claims about what he did are mostly mundane and there's no reason to question most of them. Any bits about his being divine can be safely ignored because they don't impact the effect he had on history.

The comparison to Jesus just isn't isomorphic.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
20-02-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 11:39 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You could go through the thought experiments with your dad by imagining the two possibilities and what they mean:
1) Jesus was a real historical figure.
...
2) Jesus was not a real historical figure.
...

You can do the same for two more scenarios:
1) Caesar was not a real historical figure
If so, then we have a bunch of stories about a fictional Roman official that may or may not map to things done by other Roman officials. The effect on our view of world history is pretty negligible.

2) Caesar was a real historical figure
If so, the claims about what he did are mostly mundane and there's no reason to question most of them. Any bits about his being divine can be safely ignored because they don't impact the effect he had on history.

The comparison to Jesus just isn't isomorphic.

Yeah, I didn't think to carry that out to claims about Caesar because I don't think any of the people who make this false claim (there is more evidence of Jesus that Julius Caesar) actually believe it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-02-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It's pretty obvious to me that he is neither being serious nor expecting to be taken seriously. He is just being a dick. Anyone responding to him is just wasting his/her time.

No, I'm acting as one would if they were to take the variety of arguments used against a historical Jesus, and applied them elsewhere. And it's interesting to note that when you do, the same folks that clamor around ahistorical Jesus views, view their same way of reasoning, their same level of arguments, as ridiculous, when applied anywhere else. But that irony seems to go above everyone's head.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-02-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It's pretty obvious to me that he is neither being serious nor expecting to be taken seriously. He is just being a dick. Anyone responding to him is just wasting his/her time.

No, I'm acting as one would if they were to take the variety of arguments used against a historical Jesus, and applied them elsewhere. And it's interesting to note that when you do, the same folks that clamor around ahistorical Jesus views, view their same way of reasoning, their same level of arguments, as ridiculous, when applied anywhere else. But that irony seems to go above everyone's head.

You're not applying the arguments against a historical Jesus elsewhere, you're constructing a straw man. Which is why Grasshopper correctly notes that all you are doing is being a dishonest troll.

Unless you don't understand just how stupid what you are saying is, which would qualify you as probably too stupid to have it explained to you.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheBeardedDude's post
20-02-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:18 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 12:58 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Tom, wow. Just wow. I really don't understand how you can honestly say what you have been saying and expect to be taken seriously.

It's pretty obvious to me that he is neither being serious nor expecting to be taken seriously. He is just being a dick. Anyone responding to him is just wasting his/her time.

Nah ... he's not serious per se but, he does know what he's saying & doing.
You see, Tommyboy likes to watch.
Unsure




Kinda icky, huh? Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
20-02-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, I didn't think to carry that out to claims about Caesar because I don't think any of the people who make this false claim (there is more evidence of Jesus that Julius Caesar) actually believe it.

That's certainly been my impression. They want us to say that if it is reasonable to accept Caesar on incomplete evidence then it is reasonable to accept Jesus on the same basis... and hope we don't notice that they're smuggling all the supernatural claims in at the same time.

Your point about the value of the teachings is useful when they try this with Socrates instead of Jesus. The evidence, as I understand it, is a lot flimsier for Socrates than for Caesar so it is actually a better comparison. The problem is that if doesn't matter a bit whether Socrates was a real person or a fictional character because the important things are the ideas and somebody came up with them even if we don't know who. Using "Socrates" as a label works either way.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
20-02-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
Ah, Tomasia is having a go at irony.

Yes

Though, to quote a movie,...... "I do not think that word means what he thinks it means."

Laugh out load
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Peebothuhul's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: