More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
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20-02-2017, 01:48 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
I do not consider not being as bright as my peers as any form of insult, like I said I'm learning all the time i did in no way regard anything you said as hostile just as a way of explanation for the errors in my post to which you corrected me, and for which I am grateful.
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20-02-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:45 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 01:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, I didn't think to carry that out to claims about Caesar because I don't think any of the people who make this false claim (there is more evidence of Jesus that Julius Caesar) actually believe it.

That's certainly been my impression. They want us to say that if it is reasonable to accept Caesar on incomplete evidence then it is reasonable to accept Jesus on the same basis... and hope we don't notice that they're smuggling all the supernatural claims in at the same time.

Your point about the value of the teachings is useful when they try this with Socrates instead of Jesus. The evidence, as I understand it, is a lot flimsier for Socrates than for Caesar so it is actually a better comparison. The problem is that if doesn't matter a bit whether Socrates was a real person or a fictional character because the important things are the ideas and somebody came up with them even if we don't know who. Using "Socrates" as a label works either way.

Exactly. What theists like Tomato still don't get is that it is irrelevant to a lot of us whether or not Jesus was a real historic person. If it were proven tomorrow that Jesus was an actual person who lived between 0-35 CE, that wouldn't qualify a single story in the Gospels attributed to him as being true or even possible. Those are separate claims. Even the more mundane claims, like where he was born, would need evidential support. But the supernatural claims go against everything we know about how the world works, so it doesn't matter if the person who wrote those stories believed they were writing the truth, what they believe is subject to being completely wrong.

When tasked with believing or disbelieving a story that requires suspension of nature, I will disbelieve it until it can be shown possible.

So, just as soon as someone dies and (with no natural interference) comes back to life a full 3 days later, I'll chalk Jesus' resurrection up as fiction on par with Harry Potter coming back to life.

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20-02-2017, 01:51 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:48 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I do not consider not being as bright as my peers as any form of insult, like I said I'm learning all the time i did in no way regard anything you said as hostile just as a way of explanation for the errors in my post to which you corrected me, and for which I am grateful.

I didn't think you were insulting yourself, I am just saying that you should give yourself more credit. Spend less time being self-depricating. Confidence!

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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20-02-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:50 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Exactly. What theists like Tomato still don't get is that it is irrelevant to a lot of us whether or not Jesus was a real historic person.

Speak for yourself.

The level of desperation often employed by many atheists in order to argue that Jesus didn't exist, speak volumes about the personal relevancy, particularly among anti-theist.

Among anti-theists there seems to be high propensity towards Jesus-myth, ahistoricist position, just like their high propensity among muslims who have a hostile attitude towards Jews, towards Holocaust denial, or among anti-Obama republicans, and birtherism, or anti-evolution folks and creationism, etc...

If it was irrelevant, there wouldn't be cottage industry devoted to it. It wouldn't even be something we'd be arguing about, so it does appear to hold some personal value for many atheists, primarily as a tool against a religion they despise.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 02:25 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 01:50 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Exactly. What theists like Tomato still don't get is that it is irrelevant to a lot of us whether or not Jesus was a real historic person.

Speak for yourself.

The level of desperation often employed by many atheists in order to argue that Jesus didn't exist, speak volumes about the personal relevancy, particularly among anti-theist.

Among anti-theists there seems to be high propensity towards Jesus-myth, ahistoricist position, just like their high propensity among muslims who have a hostile attitude towards Jews, towards Holocaust denial, or among anti-Obama republicans, and birtherism, or anti-evolution folks and creationism, etc...

"Speak for yourself. "

"Among anti-theists there seems to be high propensity towards Jesus-myth, ahistoricist position, just like..."

Laugh out load

Tomato shows his hypocrisy. Answering any questions posed to you yet?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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20-02-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 02:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Answering any questions posed to you yet?

Yea.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 02:30 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 02:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Answering any questions posed to you yet?

Yea.

So that would actually be a "no" from the dishonest troll. And you wonder why people call you a dishonest troll? Consider

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20-02-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 12:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 12:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Carrier notes at least 7 reliable contemporary sources for Julius Caesar. Can you name even one for Jesus? Drinking Beverage

None of them are scientific sources, or particularly reliable. They're just writing what the Caeser cults at the time believed.

No. There are several letters of Cicero written to Caesar, still preserved and who was an exact contemporary of Caesar. There are extant letters from Caesar to Balbus and to Oppius. They're very difficult to find online but they exist.

There are enemies who fought against him who wrote about him. There are contemporaries who wrote about him DURING HIS LIFETIME. Sallust, Nepos, Catullus, Pollio, Virgil, Ovid, all contemporaries wrote about Caesar while he lived. There are also contemporary coins struck while he was alive.







Jesus? Zip. Nothing. Stone cold silence.


So, here you have a god who supposedly created the universe and everything in it and he's walking around the earth for 32 years and nobody bothers to write about him until about 22 years after he dies and that was only because the person probably had an epileptic hallucination.

Pffffft Dodgy

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-02-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 01:48 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I do not consider not being as bright as my peers as any form of insult, like I said I'm learning all the time i did in no way regard anything you said as hostile just as a way of explanation for the errors in my post to which you corrected me, and for which I am grateful.

I didn't think you were insulting yourself, I am just saying that you should give yourself more credit. Spend less time being self-depricating. Confidence!
Thank you my friendSmile
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20-02-2017, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 02:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: More evidence for Jesus than Caesar?
(20-02-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 07:24 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  How do we know of Julius Caeser? A good number of ways. Least of all being that he left works behind him, most notably his Commentaries on The Gallic Wars.

Yea, but we don't know he wrote it, somebody could pretended to be a fictional Caesar writing the account, a point made likely by the fact that it's written in a third person narrative. Writers commonly pretended to be other people to gain recognition at that time.

Quote:Other sources including the surviving speeches by the Roman politician Cicero, the works by the Roman historians Sallust, Suetonius, and Plutarch, the coins baring his name and face, busts of him which survived, etc.

Fictional characters were also given speeches as well. Most likely Ceaser originated as a myth of a God king, and attributed sayings and feats. We also have coins of non-existing God-kinds as well.

Likely much of we have regarding Ceaser was created by the Roman religions cult of Empire, interweaving mythological elements, with fictional realistic elements, to produce what we have now.

What a pile of crap. You are IN NO WAY even qualified to discuss the topic, much less make unsupported ASSertions.

References REQUIRED.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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