Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
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17-01-2014, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 10:27 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(16-01-2014 07:24 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I think it's time for you all to lay off a bit. Obviously you're dealing with a pretty new member of the Church who's not speaking from a perspective of particularly informed cultural and racial awareness. Rather, this is someone who hasn't dealt much with these questions and is from a culture that has a completely different set of embedded assumptions and values. Rather than sharing her opinion from a reasoned and experienced position, she's looking around for the quickest and easiest answer she can find.

Then she's an idiot, and should not be doing that, and I won't ever abide willful ignorance

(16-01-2014 07:24 PM)maklelan Wrote:  She interprets the texts she reads in the LDS standard works basically from a culturally blank slate, and doesn't appear to understand the history of this jargon or the cultural backdrop against which this kind of language profiles.

Again, she should stop doing that.

(16-01-2014 07:24 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I have no doubt she's an honest, sincere, and loving person who harbors no ill will toward members of other ethnicities, and is just sharing what she assumes to be the standard interpretation of the literature. I'm sure some of you are aware of this, at least to some degree, but rather than try to understand what's informing her responses, or try to help her understand, you're belligerently and violently jumping down her throat, which I don't think is a particularly insightful or informed way to educate her. That reaction not only is not going to help her come to a better understanding, but it's going to make her dig in her heals more and grow more and more adamant about this interpretation of hers that elicited such violent and rude insults from the atheists. Maybe approach this new and learning member with a little more tact and maturity. That doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs about Mormonism's depraved and insidious nature, it just means you can choose to educate rather than just shout angrily at people.

This is incorrect to say. I bent over backwards for her to try to help her understand. That's what this entire thread has been about. The whole thing has been about trying to help her understand. Don't you say I didn't try to help her understand. That is complete and utter bullshit, and you have to know it. I doubt it's the understanding you would have wanted me to help her with, but this is an Atheist forum, not a Mormon one, so why would I help her on her journey into delusionment?

If she really is this "delicate little newbie LDS flower" as you seem to want to paint her out as, it's not my responsibility to coddle her through her LDS learning experience. I'm here to expose the bullshit, not pander to it. That's ridiculous for you to expect of me. And if she really is so delicate and new and ill informed, which I don't know if she'd appreciate you saying that or agree with you on, then why in the hell would she have come here to, what I have to point out again is, an Atheist Forum. She came here. I didn't come to her. You're statement is wrong.

Like I said, I bent over backwards for her to respond to her questions of, "Where does it say that? Who said that? What prophet said that? That official LDS doctrine?", etc... I even diagrammed an example in unambiguous language.

I spent hours doing this...for her. For her because she could not be bothered to do her own research on her "own" church and her "own" beliefs. Because she does not know her own history. Because she do not "own [a] particularly informed cultural and racial awareness"?! Really? That's a cop out. That's not my responsibility, that's hers. And when I faced her with it her response was to like the racism she found there.

And let me make this last point clear. I am not attacking her as an "angry atheist". I'm not even attacking her. She holds to racist beliefs, notions and concepts. As long as she does, she's a racist. She is free at any moment to drop those racist beliefs, notions, and concepts, and I'll happily not think of her as a racist anymore. She's the one who demonstrated that she holds agreement with those concepts. I didn't randomly make a claim about her. I even, toward the beginning of this thread said, I assume that neither of you, nor the average modern day LDS member, since 1978, is actually a racist. But she demonstrated it to me, there for I say it.

And, Maklelan, just in case you are not clear on this, let me double down on it now. Alla is a racist! If you are not a racist in your heart (which I still hope she isn't) but you support racism and defend it, then what's the distinction. You don't get a free pass for ignorance. Ignorance destroys and rots, and I fight that. That was the point of this whole post, to expose ignorance, and as you said, she dug in, instead of digging out. She needs to confront the truth of the views of these things she holds to be true, and that she is willing to blindly support and defend. And if she can come out the other side and realize they are in fact racist, and she can no longer defend these racist ideas and dogma, then good. I will be happy for her. But in the mean time I refused to coddle and enable racist notions. I drop bombs on them. And if it makes her sad to be called a racist, then perhaps she needs to take a good strong look at why the claim is being made.

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17-01-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(16-01-2014 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 07:24 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I think it's time for you all to lay off a bit. Obviously you're dealing with a pretty new member of the Church who's not speaking from a perspective of particularly informed cultural and racial awareness. Rather, this is someone who hasn't dealt much with these questions and is from a culture that has a completely different set of embedded assumptions and values. Rather than sharing her opinion from a reasoned and experienced position, she's looking around for the quickest and easiest answer she can find. She interprets the texts she reads in the LDS standard works basically from a culturally blank slate, and doesn't appear to understand the history of this jargon or the cultural backdrop against which this kind of language profiles.

I have no doubt she's an honest, sincere, and loving person who harbors no ill will toward members of other ethnicities, and is just sharing what she assumes to be the standard interpretation of the literature. I'm sure some of you are aware of this, at least to some degree, but rather than try to understand what's informing her responses, or try to help her understand, you're belligerently and violently jumping down her throat, which I don't think is a particularly insightful or informed way to educate her. That reaction not only is not going to help her come to a better understanding, but it's going to make her dig in her heals more and grow more and more adamant about this interpretation of hers that elicited such violent and rude insults from the atheists. Maybe approach this new and learning member with a little more tact and maturity. That doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs about Mormonism's depraved and insidious nature, it just means you can choose to educate rather than just shout angrily at people.

This is an atheist forum, which you seem to have forgotten.

We have been pointing out her unthinking parroting of things she only dimly understands. Maybe we can save her from mindless faith.

I don't really think we need you to school us on this.



Why DO theists come to atheist's forums then Demand respect or to be treated with kid-gloves? Why is persecution the first thing in their bag of tricks?
Does anyone else ever get annoyed that we must spend SO much time discussing HOW we converse while conveniently dodging the very subject matter theists claim they are here to investigate??

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-01-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:27 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  This is an atheist forum, which you seem to have forgotten.

We have been pointing out her unthinking parroting of things she only dimly understands. Maybe we can save her from mindless faith.

I don't really think we need you to school us on this.



Why DO theists come to atheist's forums then Demand respect or to be treated with kid-gloves? Why is persecution the first thing in their bag of tricks?
Does anyone else ever get annoyed that we must spend SO much time discussing HOW we converse while conveniently dodging the very subject matter theists claim they are here to investigate??

there is nothing wrong with being nice to each other. nobody is talking about persecution.

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 11:10 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
What we are forgetting here is that Alla and all literalist LDS adherents are claiming that Adam and his progeny were white (not even Semitic!). It was only after the Laminated folks or the Niflheim (or whatever they were called) "sinned", that colored races came into being. In other words, we (the darkies) are an afterthought of God's creation.

It doesn't matter if some Mormons do not hold to this view. Some other people (like Alla) do and that is as a result of LDS indoctrination and this blatantly unscientific (and racist) view of human evolution should be vigorously combated wherever found.

Doc
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17-01-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:34 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:27 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why DO theists come to atheist's forums then Demand respect or to be treated with kid-gloves? Why is persecution the first thing in their bag of tricks?
Does anyone else ever get annoyed that we must spend SO much time discussing HOW we converse while conveniently dodging the very subject matter theists claim they are here to investigate??

there is nothing wrong with being nice to each other. nobody is talking about persecution.



I have no problem being nice to you, Alla. As long as you're honest. With yourself and with other members here.

My point is simple:
Maklelan made the "be nice to Alla" post back on page 6 ---- we are now on page 12. And the content of the conversation has been derailed by HOW we should treat you instead of addressing the actual material.

The basis of my question is:
(1) Why must theists always cry persecution when it is THEY who have chosen an atheist forum? Is the name on the door not printed big enough???
(2) Why must theists be coddled? If their faith is as strong as they claim they should be able to handle a few raps on the knuckles from non-believers???

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-01-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Like I said, I bent over backwards for her to respond to her questions of, "Where does it say that? Who said that? What prophet said that? That official LDS doctrine?", etc... I even diagrammed an example in unambiguous language.

I spent hours doing this...for her. For her because she could not be bothered to do her own research on her "own" church and her "own" beliefs. Because she does not know her own history.
If I asked you some questions it doesn't mean that I do not do my research. It means that I disagree with YOUR UNDERSTANDING of what LDS doctrine is.
Nobody knows and understands LDS Doctrine for 100%. It is not possible. We all have to learn it for our whole life. We still will continue to learn when we pass the veil. But it looks like you think that you know it all and understand it all correctly by just reading some anti-Mormon sites or reading some quotes.
If Scriptures were teaching racism I would be a racist. I would judge people by the color of their skin or by their race. But I don't do this. There is no such thing in the Scripture where it says that people have to be judged by the color of their skin. If I am wrong show me where there is such a statement.
You assume that dark color of the skin is for the purpose of hatred. Where does my God teach that people have to hate each other for the skin color, or for the race? Where?

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 09:36 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 08:49 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Erm Consider ... not intentionally.

I would consider characterizing conversion as "mind-slaving" to be flagrantly and intentionally antagonistic.

(17-01-2014 08:49 AM)DLJ Wrote:  My apologies, I thought we were on the same page. My mistake. OK, I guess you were referring to an inner-struggle.

So, are you now saying that you don't see anything wrong in what what was done to Alla?

That's a shame.

I don't think patronizing me is helpful.

(17-01-2014 08:49 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And no, I was not equating addiction to "brain-washing" which I think is what you might have been alluding to.

Not just brainwashing, but the whole project.

I'm confused. You seem to be taking something personally.

I got the impression from some previous posts that you were actively attempting to change the organisation from within as you seemed to be decrying some of the abuses of trust/authority and claiming that change has been happening.

I was asking for some details about that.

Have I misread you?

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17-01-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 09:54 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Tyson FTW!!

And yet:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churc...19648.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chief-rabb...34568.html

http://www.atheists.org/convention2014

http://www.atheistconvention.org.au/

http://www.aaaboston2013.com/

http://www.atheistalliance.org/activities/conventions

[this board]

I agree that the notion of organized and navel-gazing atheism violates a lot of the ideals for which certain atheists advocate, but that's a you problem. After all, you're participating right now in exactly what Dr. Tyson criticizes.

That's amusing.

I see it more as akin to secret meetings of the early abolitionist movement... freedom, justice, mutual support... that kinda thing.

Big Grin

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17-01-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:43 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  (2) Why must theists be coddled? If their faith is as strong as they claim they should be able to handle a few raps on the knuckles from non-believers???
for the same reason why atheists must be coddled by theists. It is good when people are kind/nice to each other especially when they disagree or don't understand each other.
when we are coddled by each other we will have more positive and good experiences.

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:43 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  (2) Why must theists be coddled? If their faith is as strong as they claim they should be able to handle a few raps on the knuckles from non-believers???
for the same reason why atheists must be coddled by theists. It is good when people are kind/nice to each other especially when they disagree or don't understand each other.
when we are coddled by each other we will have more positive and good experiences.

WitchSabrina, she doesn't understand what words mean or reinterprets them to suit her purposes, so it's pointless.

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