Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
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17-01-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:54 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  for the same reason why atheists must be coddled by theists. It is good when people are kind/nice to each other especially when they disagree or don't understand each other.
when we are coddled by each other we will have more positive and good experiences.

WitchSabrina, she doesn't understand what words mean, so it's pointless.


Ah. Ok. I honestly did not think of that.
Let's leave my questions of "how we treat theists" alone - or move it to another thread then,
Thanks for your help Raptor.

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17-01-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:03 AM)maklelan Wrote:  http://www.atheists.org/convention2014

http://www.atheistconvention.org.au/

http://www.aaaboston2013.com/

http://www.atheistalliance.org/activities/conventions
Any atheistic philosophy or organization has nothing to do with atheism itself as its only a lack of belief in Gods.

Stalin wasn't motivated by his personal "Non-belief" in God to commit atrocities. you cannot say that "non-belief" is a belief system.. THAT'S FUCKING RETARDED.

There is no "belief system" shared by atheists,when I tell you i'm an atheist, there is nothing you can assume about any of my other beliefs and on the other hand when you tell me that you're a Mormon i can assume a lot of stupid things about your personal beliefs thanks to the racist cult you subscribe to.
Quote:After all, you're participating right now in exactly what Dr. Tyson criticizes.
No.. not really you're grossly misunderstood my friend.. this place is for people who do not believe in God its not for people who babble about how hardly they do not believe in God..Laughat

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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17-01-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Then she's an idiot, and should not be doing that, and I won't ever abide willful ignorance.

Way to assert the dominance of your worldview and intelligence in a constructive and helpful way.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Again, she should stop doing that.

And you should stop doing a ton of things, too, but you like doing them and you don't really care, so you'll keep doing them.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  This is incorrect to say. I bent over backwards for her to try to help her understand.

Right, you bent over backwards to copy and paste stuff you could interpret for her and then shotgun at her. Then when you saw she wasn't really understanding the significance of these texts or the jargon she was using in her second language, you helpfully said, "Holyshit you really are fucking crazy!" Would that all atheists could be as accommodating and noble as you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That's what this entire thread has been about. The whole thing has been about trying to help her understand.

Patronize other people if you think they don't know better. Don't patronize me.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Don't you say I didn't try to help her understand. That is complete and utter bullshit, and you have to know it. I doubt it's the understanding you would have wanted me to help her with, but this is an Atheist forum, not a Mormon one, so why would I help her on her journey into delusionment?

Because your belligerence and anger are creating more lifelong ideological opponents and really only serve as emotional masturbation for you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  If she really is this "delicate little newbie LDS flower" as you seem to want to paint her out as, it's not my responsibility to coddle her through her LDS learning experience.

And you're certainly not going to be one to take a high road if it's not your "responsibility." After all, atheism's not about reason and objectivity, it's about being a huge asshole to people who disagree with you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I'm here to expose the bullshit, not pander to it.

And you've exposed exactly how angry and belligerent you can get when confronted with someone who can't play the game the way you want to play. You've also exposed how angry and belligerent you can get when someone exposes your bullshit.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That's ridiculous for you to expect of me.

Silly me. I thought I was among humanists and rationalists. I didn't realize this was just a big anti-religion circle-jerk.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And if she really is so delicate and new and ill informed, which I don't know if she'd appreciate you saying that or agree with you on, then why in the hell would she have come here to, what I have to point out again is, an Atheist Forum. She came here. I didn't come to her. You're statement is wrong.

No, it's accurate, you're just making poor excuses for your horrid behavior. She should have known better, so you are justified in howling and cursing at her in all caps and repeatedly calling her a racist while you find different ways to insist she's mentally handicapped.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Like I said, I bent over backwards for her to respond to her questions of, "Where does it say that? Who said that? What prophet said that? That official LDS doctrine?", etc... I even diagrammed an example in unambiguous language.

I spent hours doing this...for her.

Don't insult my intelligence. You did it so you could win a rhetoric battle.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  For her because she could not be bothered to do her own research on her "own" church and her "own" beliefs.

You didn't provide her with research, you provided your own context and interpretation for a bunch of texts you don't understand that function within a religious community you understand even less and then shotgunned them at her while you shrieked "RACISM!!!" in all caps at her. That's not how you educate someone, that's just how you put them on the defensive and be a colossal asshole.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Because she does not know her own history.

You don't know the history that well either, so keep the rhetoric down.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Because she do not "own [a] particularly informed cultural and racial awareness"?! Really? That's a cop out. That's not my responsibility, that's hers, and when I faced her with it her response was to like the racism she found there.

So she came unprepared into a discussion and you took advantage of her to rhetorically brutalize her. You're such a big person.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And let me make this last point clear. I am not attacking her as an "angry atheist". I'm not even attacking her.

You repeatedly shouted at her that she was "fucking crazy." You either think I'm an absolute fool or you think that merely asserting anything you want reifies the assertion.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She holds to racist beliefs, notions and concepts.

And your belligerence certainly didn't help her at all, it just put her on the defensive and made her wonder why what she shared made you so angry.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  As long as she does, she's a racist.

And as long as you so angrily and thoughtlessly shriek at her, you're an asshat.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She is free at any moment to drop those racist beliefs, notions, and concepts, and I'll happily not think of her as a racist anymore. She's the one who demonstrated that she holds agreement with those concepts. I didn't randomly make a claim about her. I even, toward the beginning of this thread, said I assume that neither of you, nor the average modern day LDS member, since 1978, is actually a racist. But she demonstrated it to me, there for I say it.

And, Maklelan, just in case you are not clear on this, let me double down on it now. Alla is a racist!

You have no idea if she's a racist or not.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  If you are not a racist in your heart (which I still hope she isn't) but you support racism and defend it, then what's the distinction.

She doesn't know she's defending racism, and your angry and belligerent tirades aren't helping her. If you cared at all for actually helping her understand, you'd be patient when you saw she didn't understand, you wouldn't see it as an opportunity to pounce on an unprepared opponent and brutalize her.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  You don't get a free pass for ignorance.

I'll hold you to that, then.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Ignorance destroys and rots, and I fight that. That was the point of this whole post, to expose ignorance, and as you said, she dug in, instead of digging out.

Because your belligerence and anger forced her to the defensive. That's human nature. You get no free pass for being ignorant of that, meaning she dug in only because of how much of an asshole you were being. It's your fault she dug in, and now you're making up childish excuses for why you shouldn't have to take responsibility.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She needs to confront the truth of the views of these things she holds to be true, that she is willing to blindly support and defend, and if she can come out the other side and realize they are in fact racist, and she can no longer defend these racist ideas and dogma, then good. I will be happy for her. But in the mean time I refused to coddle and enable racist notions.

Even when that refusal perpetuates the problem, evidently. Damn the results and full speed ahead. She should know better.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I drop bombs on them.

Because that makes you feel good, and you don't appear to give a shit whether or not it helps. I wish I could say that were the exception here.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And if it makes her sad to be called a racist, then perhaps she needs to take a good strong look at why the claim is being made.

Perhaps there's a whole list of things you could do so that your points get across better, but who cares, right? Not your problem.

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17-01-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 11:01 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Then she's an idiot, and should not be doing that, and I won't ever abide willful ignorance.

Way to assert the dominance of your worldview and intelligence in a constructive and helpful way.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Again, she should stop doing that.

And you should stop doing a ton of things, too, but you like doing them and you don't really care, so you'll keep doing them.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  This is incorrect to say. I bent over backwards for her to try to help her understand.

Right, you bent over backwards to copy and paste stuff you could interpret for her and then shotgun at her. Then when you saw she wasn't really understanding the significance of these texts or the jargon she was using in her second language, you helpfully said, "Holyshit you really are fucking crazy!" Would that all atheists could be as accommodating and noble as you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That's what this entire thread has been about. The whole thing has been about trying to help her understand.

Patronize other people if you think they don't know better. Don't patronize me.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Don't you say I didn't try to help her understand. That is complete and utter bullshit, and you have to know it. I doubt it's the understanding you would have wanted me to help her with, but this is an Atheist forum, not a Mormon one, so why would I help her on her journey into delusionment?

Because your belligerence and anger are creating more lifelong ideological opponents and really only serve as emotional masturbation for you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  If she really is this "delicate little newbie LDS flower" as you seem to want to paint her out as, it's not my responsibility to coddle her through her LDS learning experience.

And you're certainly not going to be one to take a high road if it's not your "responsibility." After all, atheism's not about reason and objectivity, it's about being a huge asshole to people who disagree with you.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I'm here to expose the bullshit, not pander to it.

And you've exposed exactly how angry and belligerent you can get when confronted with someone who can't play the game the way you want to play. You've also exposed how angry and belligerent you can get when someone exposes your bullshit.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That's ridiculous for you to expect of me.

Silly me. I thought I was among humanists and rationalists. I didn't realize this was just a big anti-religion circle-jerk.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And if she really is so delicate and new and ill informed, which I don't know if she'd appreciate you saying that or agree with you on, then why in the hell would she have come here to, what I have to point out again is, an Atheist Forum. She came here. I didn't come to her. You're statement is wrong.

No, it's accurate, you're just making poor excuses for your horrid behavior. She should have known better, so you are justified in howling and cursing at her in all caps and repeatedly calling her a racist while you find different ways to insist she's mentally handicapped.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Like I said, I bent over backwards for her to respond to her questions of, "Where does it say that? Who said that? What prophet said that? That official LDS doctrine?", etc... I even diagrammed an example in unambiguous language.

I spent hours doing this...for her.

Don't insult my intelligence. You did it so you could win a rhetoric battle.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  For her because she could not be bothered to do her own research on her "own" church and her "own" beliefs.

You didn't provide her with research, you provided your own context and interpretation for a bunch of texts you don't understand that function within a religious community you understand even less and then shotgunned them at her while you shrieked "RACISM!!!" in all caps at her. That's not how you educate someone, that's just how you put them on the defensive and be a colossal asshole.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Because she does not know her own history.

You don't know the history that well either, so keep the rhetoric down.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Because she do not "own [a] particularly informed cultural and racial awareness"?! Really? That's a cop out. That's not my responsibility, that's hers, and when I faced her with it her response was to like the racism she found there.

So she came unprepared into a discussion and you took advantage of her to rhetorically brutalize her. You're such a big person.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And let me make this last point clear. I am not attacking her as an "angry atheist". I'm not even attacking her.

You repeatedly shouted at her that she was "fucking crazy." You either think I'm an absolute fool or you think that merely asserting anything you want reifies the assertion.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She holds to racist beliefs, notions and concepts.

And your belligerence certainly didn't help her at all, it just put her on the defensive and made her wonder why what she shared made you so angry.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  As long as she does, she's a racist.

And as long as you so angrily and thoughtlessly shriek at her, you're an asshat.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She is free at any moment to drop those racist beliefs, notions, and concepts, and I'll happily not think of her as a racist anymore. She's the one who demonstrated that she holds agreement with those concepts. I didn't randomly make a claim about her. I even, toward the beginning of this thread, said I assume that neither of you, nor the average modern day LDS member, since 1978, is actually a racist. But she demonstrated it to me, there for I say it.

And, Maklelan, just in case you are not clear on this, let me double down on it now. Alla is a racist!

You have no idea if she's a racist or not.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  If you are not a racist in your heart (which I still hope she isn't) but you support racism and defend it, then what's the distinction.

She doesn't know she's defending racism, and your angry and belligerent tirades aren't helping her. If you cared at all for actually helping her understand, you'd be patient when you saw she didn't understand, you wouldn't see it as an opportunity to pounce on an unprepared opponent and brutalize her.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  You don't get a free pass for ignorance.

I'll hold you to that, then.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Ignorance destroys and rots, and I fight that. That was the point of this whole post, to expose ignorance, and as you said, she dug in, instead of digging out.

Because your belligerence and anger forced her to the defensive. That's human nature. You get no free pass for being ignorant of that, meaning she dug in only because of how much of an asshole you were being. It's your fault she dug in, and now you're making up childish excuses for why you shouldn't have to take responsibility.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  She needs to confront the truth of the views of these things she holds to be true, that she is willing to blindly support and defend, and if she can come out the other side and realize they are in fact racist, and she can no longer defend these racist ideas and dogma, then good. I will be happy for her. But in the mean time I refused to coddle and enable racist notions.

Even when that refusal perpetuates the problem, evidently. Damn the results and full speed ahead. She should know better.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I drop bombs on them.

Because that makes you feel good, and you don't appear to give a shit whether or not it helps. I wish I could say that were the exception here.

(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  And if it makes her sad to be called a racist, then perhaps she needs to take a good strong look at why the claim is being made.

Perhaps there's a whole list of things you could do so that your points get across better, but who cares, right? Not your problem.

You've just clearly demonstrated that you're not worth the time to talk to.

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17-01-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
Makle, It is very true that People can be assholes. This is not mutually exclusive to your religion or lack thereof.

Your response to RJ was priceless. I'm just curious. Which one are you, the pot or the kettle?

You came to an Atheist forum to clear up any misconceptions regarding mormonism, yet you provide unsatisfactory surface answers of, "its not literal." or simply, "its not what the church's stance is.." irrespective of any and all evidence to the contrary that it is - in fact - the church's stance through the mentality and attitudes of its members. These statements of your serve no purpose other than to "emotional masturbate" yourself into thinking you've been helpful, when in fact, you nuance language as to impede any discussion, and subtly goad your opponents into the rhetoric you claim you wish to avoid.

tut-tut.

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17-01-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:58 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Any atheistic philosophy or organization has nothing to do with atheism itself as its only a lack of belief in Gods.

That's a remarkably weak atheism you're advocating, and nobody really consistently holds to it, since that's not really what atheism means. I'll save you the step and point out that appealing to the etymology is the etymological fallacy. "Atheism" is whatever sense "atheism" is commonly used to communicate, and the absolutely overwhelming majority of the usages of the word have reference to the active rejection of the existence of deities. The weak atheism you presupposed above has been semantically subsumed by the term "agnostic" for years. The notion that atheism as a whole is broadly an absence of belief in deities is a juvenile rhetorical ploy that serves purposes such as insisting that all babies are atheists, and that atheism can't be a religion, and that it has no structured belief system. All of this is rhetorical nonsense, and I'm getting sick of having to waste all my time trying to help you all graduate from your high school atheism.

(17-01-2014 10:58 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Stalin wasn't motivated by his personal "Non-belief" in God to commit atrocities.

No, but he absolutely was motivated by his distrust of religion in general, just like Hitler and Mao and the Kim Jongs, and that distrust absolutely and unquestionably falls within the most common semantic sense appealed to by the use of the word "atheist" by self proclaimed atheists.

(17-01-2014 10:58 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  you cannot say that "non-belief" is a belief system[/size].. THAT'S FUCKING RETARDED.

Just like you can't say atheism is exclusively and entirely non-belief and expect any thinking adult to assume you are able to walk erect. Your little semantic games may convince other hobbyists, but you really haven't the foggiest idea what atheism is if you honestly believe what you're arguing.

(17-01-2014 10:58 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  There is no "belief system" shared by atheists,when I tell you i'm an atheist, there is nothing you can assume about any of my other beliefs and on the other hand when you tell me that you're a Mormon i can assume a lot of stupid things about your personal beliefs thanks to the racist cult you subscribe to.

Yeah, you're not just naive and antagonistic like the rest. You're special, aren't you?

(17-01-2014 10:58 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  No.. not really you're grossly misunderstood my friend.. this place is for people who do not believe in God its not for people who babble about how hardly they do not believe in God..Laughat

I sincerely have a hard time believing you expect me to take this semantic puppet show seriously.

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17-01-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 10:44 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:18 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Like I said, I bent over backwards for her to respond to her questions of, "Where does it say that? Who said that? What prophet said that? That official LDS doctrine?", etc... I even diagrammed an example in unambiguous language.
Nobody knows and understands LDS Doctrine for 100%. It is not possible. We all have to learn it for our whole life. We still will continue to learn when we pass the veil. But it looks like you think that you know it all and understand it all correctly by just reading some anti-Mormon sites or reading some quotes.

I explained to her how to quote chapter and verse from her scriptures. She replied that she wasn't interested in doing to because people are only interested in Christian doctrine[1]. She doesn't seem to be prepared to talk about her faith and what her scriptures and doctrines actually say.

[1] http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid453316

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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17-01-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 11:23 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I sincerely have a hard time believing you expect me to take this semantic puppet show seriously.

I don't particularly care whether you take it seriously since I can no longer take you seriously.

Your recent blog trying to characterize Dr. Dawkins' comments as racist and advocating muzzling anyone you deem as 'privileged'.

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17-01-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
Sooooo anyway ... ... The last few days on the forum have been cool for me. Being ex LDS, way back when and all that, some of the threads have been fairly interesting.

Things I have learned:-
There has been a more progressive outlook imposed on the church over the last 20 years. I questioned the reasoning behind this (secular influence and all that) but enjoyed what I felt was a pleasant and enlightening discourse.

Over the last few weeks with young Alla, I have also jumped in and out of threads with her (by the way Alla, I only realised you were a girl the other day, so if I have at any point in the past addressed you in the masculine, I apologise) ... in my conversations with Alla, I am also still of the impression however, that the fundie hardline is still alive and well in LDS.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me, I have not believed in the existence of the supernatural for nearly 20 years.

So I went out today socially with some friends and was looking forward to seeing how various threads had progressed AND...

Two of my favourite posters are fiercely engaged in a grammar war! Speak and spells at high noon! 20 paces then draw!

Alla has defaulted to racist by naivety.
EVERYONE is going mental!
Mac called someone an ass hat! (I like it, very retro 80s insults rule)
Atheism now means I believe in not believing
DLJ of all people is apparently being antagonistic!
Raptor has got his angry hat on today...
It's all gone a bit tits up! I wonder what's on the other threads Big Grin

Anyway, I'm merely trying to suggest we all try and calm down a little bit?

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17-01-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 11:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Makle, It is very true that People can be assholes. This is not mutually exclusive to your religion or lack thereof.

Agreed.

(17-01-2014 11:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Your response to RJ was priceless. I'm just curious. Which one are you, the pot or the kettle?

You came to an Atheist forum to clear up any misconceptions regarding mormonism, yet you provide unsatisfactory surface answers of, "its not literal." or simply, "its not what the church's stance is.."

I think it's quite a gross misrepresentation to insist I've given nothing more than single-clause dismissive answers. I've explained quite a great deal, even if the only time anyone here focuses in on specific comments of mine is when they think they come down to simple and binary concepts.

(17-01-2014 11:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  irrespective of any and all evidence to the contrary that it is - in fact - the church's stance through the mentality and attitudes of its members.

I've not really been presented with much in the way of evidence. Raptor has copied and pasted a bunch of scriptures in a shotgun approach alongside the assertion of a single one dimensional interpretation with no concern whatsoever for any readings, interpretations, or official discussions that at all complicate his simplistic and reductive caricature of LDS thoughts on race. Apart from that, the only thing I've been provided with is assumption and the occasional personal experience.

(17-01-2014 11:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  These statements of your serve no purpose other than to "emotional masturbate" yourself into thinking you've been helpful, when in fact, you nuance language as to impede any discussion, and subtly goad your opponents into the rhetoric you claim you wish to avoid.

I don't deny I use rhetoric, but only in response to the rhetoric of others, and I'm willing to back it up with substance and even apologize and make peace if others are willing. I also think there are people out there who might disagree with you that my participation here serves no real purpose. They're not posting in these threads, though.

(17-01-2014 11:09 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  tut-tut.

Indeed.

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