Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
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17-01-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 04:38 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Mother Nature is an actual figure in your faith?

no.
(17-01-2014 04:38 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Is she the one that GOD gives the spirit to, and then she decides what body to put it in? Sort of like a delivery clerk?
no, but scientist can tell you about Mother Nature.
"Mother Nature" is my term for natural laws

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 04:54 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 04:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 04:38 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Mother Nature is an actual figure in your faith?

no.
(17-01-2014 04:38 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Is she the one that GOD gives the spirit to, and then she decides what body to put it in? Sort of like a delivery clerk?
no, but scientist can tell you about Mother Nature.
"Mother Nature" is my term for natural laws

OK, I can buy that. So then where are the choices you speak of if the events at the beginning, and end of physical life are following natural laws?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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17-01-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 04:54 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 04:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  no.
no, but scientist can tell you about Mother Nature.
"Mother Nature" is my term for natural laws

OK, I can buy that. So then where are the choices you speak of if the events at the beginning, and end of physical life are following natural laws?
Your physical body is following natural laws. You/spirit/intelligence can choose eternal life(eternal progression) or spiritual death(eternal damnation or self-destruction). How can you choose eternal life? A: by making right choices/by following God's laws. His laws are instructions to eternal life. By following those laws you become more like God.

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17-01-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 05:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 04:54 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  OK, I can buy that. So then where are the choices you speak of if the events at the beginning, and end of physical life are following natural laws?
Your physical body is following natural laws. You/spirit/intelligence can choose eternal life(eternal progression) or spiritual death(eternal damnation or self-destruction). How can you choose eternal life? A: by making right choices/by following God's laws. His laws are instructions to eternal life. By following those laws you become more like God.

Makes perfect sense to me

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17-01-2014, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 05:54 PM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
I've been away a few hours and I see we're still going nuts Smile ... Right Mak, I'm going to address a few points and deliberately not address some others ... You have mentioned a couple of times about whether or not you're wanted or welcome here? Yes, is the short answer for me. You and I have had some not so heavy but pleasant exchanges. As ex LDS, of course I have an interest in what you're contributing. I accept that certain facets of the LDS have progressed, I believe you and I to be very comfortable with each others opposing views as to why this has come about, with myself suspecting that it is through secular influence via the last 20 years or so, married with progression of the internet etc;

There has been some heat on here about the word atheist and the implications it has concerning belief. The best way to get my view across is explain my own personal position on this and hope you can see where I come at this from.

I am agnostic atheist and am more than comfortable to accept the label anti-theist.
Agnostic for me is honest. Pertaining to knowledge I can't claim to know either way.
Atheist is equally straight forward to me. It is literally no belief.
However, as an anti-theist this is where I hope to add some clarity and speak a little about beliefs. By anti-theist, I mean I'm opposed to theology the ideas not theologian the man. So I do have active 'beliefs' based on my world view. I disagree with things that may effect my life, or society I am part of like religious tax breaks. Religious input that impedes medical advancement (stem cell research) Dogma that damages children physically (circumcision) or impedes education (young earth creationism). Needless to say, I take the position that any beliefs I hold are from a position that can be supported by evidence, moreover the counter position can not, ergo anti-theist.

You have alluded to garden variety atheists etc etc: I understand you have also received your fair share of vitriol on here, again, for reasons of reiteration I bring this up because you have alluded to people who only really offered personal experience as input. I hold 2 degrees myself and have taught academically at college and university level. Don't misconstrue what I am trying to get at here but I bring it up to clarify my approach. I personally have spoken from experience only because my experience was that of LDS. I've been there, danced the dance as it were. I tend not to do lengthy posts full of references and citations because I use my phone for this forum, I'm inherently lazy and I sincerely believe that if people are that interested in anything being discussed they can look it up themselves or do what I do and ask for guidance, authors, book advice on places like this forum.

From my point of view, the thing people on here have in common, is a lack of belief in the supernatural and that's all. Beyond that any beliefs people may have come from different places, for me as I've said, anti-theism, someone else may subscribe to philosophy as a base, others humanism and so on. We meet on here and stand by our own merit. With that in mind, I extend the same courtesy to you and Alla. What I mean by that is, you are both Mormons and that's it, that's your common ground and from that point on I will take you as two individuals and judge you both as such on your own merit. Alla, who I'm sure is a nice enough person has not always made a good account of herself on here to say the least. Nobody reserves the right to not be offended, Alla seems to attract inflammatory retaliation. You have clearly defended her from a position of obvious good intention and inadvertently got yourself lumped in with some of her more ill conceived ramblings. ... Because of this the thread has descended in to Racist Mormons vs Garden variety atheists.

I am pointing all of this out in the hope that we can all take a moment to pause and get back to it. With that said it's da internetz, this is an atheist forum so expect to be attacked fairly hard! My issue with Mormon racism or perceived racism, is not that it was the cultural norm from it's time and place in history but the fact that to have culturally inherent racism inbuilt in the first place is yet further demonstration that it's just yet another man made religion and nothing at all to do with an unproven God.

Ps, the post is a bit rambling, sorry, typing this shit on my phone is a pain in the arse!

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17-01-2014, 06:04 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I've been away a few hours and I see we're still going nuts Smile ... Right Mak, I'm going to address a few points and deliberately not address some others ... You have mentioned a couple of times about whether or not you're wanted or welcome here? Yes, is the short answer for me. You and I have had some not so heavy but pleasant exchanges. As ex LDS, of course I have an interest in what you're contributing. I accept that certain facets of the LDS have progressed, I believe you and I to be very comfortable with each others opposing views as to why this has come about, with myself suspecting that it is through secular influence via the last 20 years or so, married with progression of the internet etc;

There has been some heat on here about the word atheist and the implications it has concerning belief. The best way to get my view across is explain my own personal position on this and hope you can see where I come at this from.

I am agnostic atheist and am more than comfortable to accept the label anti-theist.
Agnostic for me is honest. Pertaining to knowledge I can't claim to know either way.
Atheist is equally straight forward to me. It is literally no belief.
However, as an anti-theist this is where I hope to add some clarity and speak a little about beliefs. By anti-theist, I mean I'm opposed to theology the ideas not theologian the man. So I do have active 'beliefs' based on my world view. I disagree with things that may effect my life, or society I am part of like religious tax breaks. Religious input that impedes medical advancement (stem cell research) Dogma that damages children physically (circumcision) or impedes education (young earth creationism). Needless to say, I take the position that any beliefs I hold are from a position that can be supported by evidence, moreover the counter position can not, ergo anti-theist.

You have alluded to garden variety atheists etc etc: I understand you have also received your fair share of vitriol on here, again, for reasons of reiteration I bring this up because you have alluded to people who only really offered personal experience as input. I hold 2 degrees myself and have taught academically at college and university level. Don't misconstrue what I am trying to get at here but I bring it up to clarify my approach. I personally have spoken from experience only because my experience was that of LDS. I've been there, danced the dance as it were. I tend not to do lengthy posts full of references and citations because I use my phone for this forum, I'm inherently lazy and I sincerely believe that if people are that interested in anything being discussed they can look it up themselves or do what I do and ask for guidance, authors, book advice on places like this forum.

From my point of view, the thing people on here have in common, is a lack of belief in the supernatural and that's all. Beyond that any beliefs people may have come from different places, for me as I've said, anti-theism, someone else may subscribe to philosophy as a base, others humanism and so on. We meet on here and stand by our own merit. With that in mind, I extend the same courtesy to you and Alla. What I mean by that is, you are both Mormons and that's it, that's your common ground and from that point on I will take you as two individuals and judge you both as such on your own merit. Alla, who I'm sure is a nice enough person has not always made a good account of herself on here to say the least. Nobody reserves the right to not be offended, Alla seems to attract inflammatory retaliation. You have clearly defended her from a position of obvious good intention and inadvertently got yourself lumped in with some of her more ill conceived ramblings. ... Because of this the thread has descended in to Racist Mormons vs Garden variety atheists.

I am pointing all of this out in the hope that we can all take a moment to pause and get back to it. With that said it's da internetz, this is an atheist forum so expect to be attacked fairly hard! My issue with Mormon racism or perceived racism that it was the cultural norm fr

That's all well and good, but maklelan put his foot in it when he got on his high horse and started with the "hobbyist atheist" bullshit. How arrogant and condescending.

Does he actually think that none of us have thought deeply about this?

He can go fuck himself. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-01-2014, 06:11 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I've been away a few hours and I see we're still going nuts Smile ... Right Mak, I'm going to address a few points and deliberately not address some others ... You have mentioned a couple of times about whether or not you're wanted or welcome here? Yes, is the short answer for me. You and I have had some not so heavy but pleasant exchanges. As ex LDS, of course I have an interest in what you're contributing. I accept that certain facets of the LDS have progressed, I believe you and I to be very comfortable with each others opposing views as to why this has come about, with myself suspecting that it is through secular influence via the last 20 years or so, married with progression of the internet etc;

There has been some heat on here about the word atheist and the implications it has concerning belief. The best way to get my view across is explain my own personal position on this and hope you can see where I come at this from.

I am agnostic atheist and am more than comfortable to accept the label anti-theist.
Agnostic for me is honest. Pertaining to knowledge I can't claim to know either way.
Atheist is equally straight forward to me. It is literally no belief.
However, as an anti-theist this is where I hope to add some clarity and speak a little about beliefs. By anti-theist, I mean I'm opposed to theology the ideas not theologian the man. So I do have active 'beliefs' based on my world view. I disagree with things that may effect my life, or society I am part of like religious tax breaks. Religious input that impedes medical advancement (stem cell research) Dogma that damages children physically (circumcision) or impedes education (young earth creationism). Needless to say, I take the position that any beliefs I hold are from a position that can be supported by evidence, moreover the counter position can not, ergo anti-theist.

You have alluded to garden variety atheists etc etc: I understand you have also received your fair share of vitriol on here, again, for reasons of reiteration I bring this up because you have alluded to people who only really offered personal experience as input. I hold 2 degrees myself and have taught academically at college and university level. Don't misconstrue what I am trying to get at here but I bring it up to clarify my approach. I personally have spoken from experience only because my experience was that of LDS. I've been there, danced the dance as it were. I tend not to do lengthy posts full of references and citations because I use my phone for this forum, I'm inherently lazy and I sincerely believe that if people are that interested in anything being discussed they can look it up themselves or do what I do and ask for guidance, authors, book advice on places like this forum.

From my point of view, the thing people on here have in common, is a lack of belief in the supernatural and that's all. Beyond that any beliefs people may have come from different places, for me as I've said, anti-theism, someone else may subscribe to philosophy as a base, others humanism and so on. We meet on here and stand by our own merit. With that in mind, I extend the same courtesy to you and Alla. What I mean by that is, you are both Mormons and that's it, that's your common ground and from that point on I will take you as two individuals and judge you both as such on your own merit. Alla, who I'm sure is a nice enough person has not always made a good account of herself on here to say the least. Nobody reserves the right to not be offended, Alla seems to attract inflammatory retaliation. You have clearly defended her from a position of obvious good intention and inadvertently got yourself lumped in with some of her more ill conceived ramblings. ... Because of this the thread has descended in to Racist Mormons vs Garden variety atheists.

I am pointing all of this out in the hope that we can all take a moment to pause and get back to it. With that said it's da internetz, this is an atheist forum so expect to be attacked fairly hard! My issue with Mormon racism or perceived racism that it was the cultural norm fr

That's all well and good, but maklelan put his foot in it when he got on his high horse and started with the "hobbyist atheist" bullshit. How arrogant and condescending.

Does he actually think that none of us have thought deeply about this?

He can go fuck himself. Drinking Beverage

I haven't read through the thread properly yet chas from where I left off earlier to be totally honest. A lot of that post was stuff I wanted to say about 5 hours ago. Maybe he should have just stuck to ass hat Big Grin

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17-01-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I've been away a few hours and I see we're still going nuts Smile ...
nice post, mateSmile
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  My issue with Mormon racism or perceived racism, is not that it was the cultural norm from it's time and place in history but the fact that to have culturally inherent racism inbuilt in the first place is yet further demonstration that it's just yet another man made religion and nothing at all to do with an unproven God.
This is were you are wrong, brother. God gives us instructions and then we govern ourselves. We as imperfect beings make mistakes, sometimes we do very bad choices. We, Gods covenant people, don't live isolated like ancient Israel did. We live in different countries with different cultures and traditions. And we inherit different cultures, we are subjects to them. But the truth which is Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is always the same. And it is noble and beautiful. And God's work can not be stopped.
When we(Saints or God's people) make mistakes we may repent. God let us to make mistakes and then when we repent He forgives us.
When we learn we always make mistakes.
Church of God is not = a bunch of perfect people. It is a bunch of imperfect people who only struggle to become like Christ.

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 06:12 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I've been away a few hours and I see we're still going nuts Smile ...
nice post, mateSmile
(17-01-2014 05:40 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  My issue with Mormon racism or perceived racism, is not that it was the cultural norm from it's time and place in history but the fact that to have culturally inherent racism inbuilt in the first place is yet further demonstration that it's just yet another man made religion and nothing at all to do with an unproven God.
This is were you are wrong, brother. God gives us instructions and then we govern ourselves. We as imperfect beings make mistakes, sometimes we do very bad choices. We, Gods covenant people, don't live isolated like ancient Israel did. We live in different countries with different cultures and traditions. And we inherit different cultures, we are subjects to them. But the truth which is Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is always the same. And it is noble and beautiful. And God's work can not be stopped.
When we(Saints or God's people) make mistakes we may repent. God let us to make mistakes and then when we repent He forgives us.
When we learn we always make mistakes.
Church of God is not = a bunch of perfect people. It is a bunch of imperfect people who only struggle to become like Christ.

You can say he is wrong, but your position is the weaker one. You make assertions and present no evidence. There is no evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-01-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Mormonism: A White Supremacy Cult? (answer: yes)
(17-01-2014 08:25 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 01:57 AM)Chippy Wrote:  --Given that you can't spell "pompous" (and don't understand what the fallacy of ad hominem actually is) I am guessing your threshold for what is "pompous" is set quite low (and probably includes people that spell pompous).

That's ironic. Chippy using an ad hominem attack to accuse the Rev of an ad hominem fallacy.

Doc

You don't understand the fallacy of ad hominem. You are yet another clown that thinks it means to insult someone.
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