Mother Teresa to be made a saint
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15-03-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 07:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  When you use "I" consistently throughout your argument, that would be "subjective", wouldn't it?

As someone once put it, the truths that we can be most confident about, are the ones about ourselves. And when it comes to the question of morality it’s not just a question out there, but also in here as well. It’s more importantly a question as to why do I believe its wrong to do this, even when tempted to do it. Why is it that if I do it, I feel guilt, a sense of wrongness. Why am I so frequently reminded of my own moral obligations, why do I find it so impossible to dismiss that moral voice, no matter how I hard I try.

If someone were to claim that I’m given to these tendencies because of my religious upbringing I’d have serious reservation about that. My religious belief only frame them, but are not the source of them.

The question of what it would take for me to believe that morality is subjective, is the day when I’m able to take whatever sense of moral obligations, whatever sense of wrongness that arises, and dismiss them as a decorative frill of personal opinion, as not real, as an illusion, without lying to myself.

If I were steal your wallet, and say to myself there’s nothing truly wrong with what I just did, I’d just be lying to myself. I wouldn’t be saying it because I believe it, but saying it to merely justify the acquisition of your wallet.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 08:15 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 04:13 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The letter she sent to Judge Ito was sent after Keating's conviction. The pleading for the money to be returned is also after he was convicted. Ailing health?? In 1992 she was healthy enough to get on planes and fly around the world, traveling from place to place, meeting with people, doing so even for the next 4 years until she died in 1997 but in 1992 she wasn't healthy enough to read and understand a damned letter? Bullshit.

By 91 she already suffered two heart attacks, battled pneumonia, and suffered further heart problems, offering to resign her post at the Missions of Charity as a result. If this doesn't constitute as ailing health than I don't know what would. If you think at this stage she's actively involved in the everyday running of her the charity she founded, rather than just the face of it, you'll likely be mistaken.

But still your entire accusation here is built on a lack of response, and the fact that her Charity didn't give back the 1million in donations received by Keating who defrauded several billion. You claimed this was so basic and simple. As if there's some precedence for such actions, as if most charitable organizations would be inclined to do this. How many of the charities that Keating donated to gave back the donations they received from him? How many of the charities that Bernice Madoff contributed to gave back the donations they received from him? Should the Boy and Girls club give back the million dollars they received through Madoff, should the Children's Aid society give back the 225k they received through him? None of them have of course. Are we're going to paint them as the scum of earth as a result?

You claim its a simple and basic gesture, yet the history of often venerated organizations placed in a similar situation, doesn't support this. And it's hardly been a cause to paint these organizations as nefarious entities.

Charities should give back stolen money. It's immoral. And simply because other charities don't return stolen money doesn't mean this "sainted" Mother Teresa should be able to get away with it too. She's being held up as someone lofty, pure and moral but she's no better than a thief herself. She was 82 at the time of the conviction of Charles Keating and still very active, flying here and there. She found the time to write a letter or have a letter written which she then signed, to be sent to the Judge but she couldn't find the time to write a check returning the stolen money. She was a selfish bitch.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-03-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  As someone once put it,

Really ? Who exactly ?

(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  the truths that we can be most confident about, are the ones about ourselves.

Bullshit. You have answered NONE of the questions posed to you about the nonsense you spout. You cannot be sure about your anecdotal opinions based ONLY on your own opinions. The fact is you were trying to claim there is "objective morality". You failed. Completely. Now you claim your "evidence" is your own opinions. How worthless this was.

(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do I find it impossible to dismiss that moral voice, no matter how I hard I try.

Because you're indoctrinated by religionists, and buy into nonsense. Your guilt is evidence of NOTHING except your guilt, and basing your opinions on nothing (not even any philosophy that you can expound), Bible Boy.

(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If someone were to claim that I’m given to these tendencies because of my religious upbringing I’d have serious reservation about that. My religious belief only frame them, but are not the source of them.

False. You learned them. Period. There is not a shred of evidence for anything entering brains any other way. You know nothing about Neuro-science.

(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The question of what it would take for me to believe that morality is subjective, is the day when I’m able to take whatever sense of moral obligations, whatever sense of wrongness that arises, and dismiss them as a decorative frill of personal opinion, as not real, as an illusion, without lying to myself.

Nonsense. Any Freshman who's taken Ethics 101 can do better than that.

(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I were steal your wallet, and say to myself there’s nothing truly wrong with what I just did, I’d just be lying to myself. I wouldn’t be saying it because I believe it, but saying it to merely justify the acquisition of your wallet.

Irrelevant. It's not about you. You claimed "objective morality" exists IN GENERAL. Your sample of one is meaningless.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 07:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  When you use "I" consistently throughout your argument, that would be "subjective", wouldn't it?

As someone once put it, the truths that we can be most confident about, are the ones about ourselves. And when it comes to the question of morality it’s not just a question out there, but also in here as well. It’s more importantly a question as to why do I believe its wrong to do this, even when tempted to do it. Why is it that if I do it, I feel guilt, a sense of wrongness. Why am I so frequently reminded of my own moral obligations, why do I find it so impossible to dismiss that moral voice, no matter how I hard I try.

If someone were to claim that I’m given to these tendencies because of my religious upbringing I’d have serious reservation about that. My religious belief only frame them, but are not the source of them.

The question of what it would take for me to believe that morality is subjective, is the day when I’m able to take whatever sense of moral obligations, whatever sense of wrongness that arises, and dismiss them as a decorative frill of personal opinion, as not real, as an illusion, without lying to myself.

If I were steal your wallet, and say to myself there’s nothing truly wrong with what I just did, I’d just be lying to myself. I wouldn’t be saying it because I believe it, but saying it to merely justify the acquisition of your wallet.

So you just put the barrier based on yourself yet you know you were raised culturally in the way societies are set up to think so.

Do you just not think early childhood development is significant in shaping minds?

It's not your "religious" uobribging, it's your EVERYTHING upbringing. They aren't separate to the human development. You're just making arbitrary distinctions. Because out social cultures are formulated on functioning this way. That's why psychopaths are deemed dabgerous to it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:15 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 05:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  By 91 she already suffered two heart attacks, battled pneumonia, and suffered further heart problems, offering to resign her post at the Missions of Charity as a result. If this doesn't constitute as ailing health than I don't know what would. If you think at this stage she's actively involved in the everyday running of her the charity she founded, rather than just the face of it, you'll likely be mistaken.

But still your entire accusation here is built on a lack of response, and the fact that her Charity didn't give back the 1million in donations received by Keating who defrauded several billion. You claimed this was so basic and simple. As if there's some precedence for such actions, as if most charitable organizations would be inclined to do this. How many of the charities that Keating donated to gave back the donations they received from him? How many of the charities that Bernice Madoff contributed to gave back the donations they received from him? Should the Boy and Girls club give back the million dollars they received through Madoff, should the Children's Aid society give back the 225k they received through him? None of them have of course. Are we're going to paint them as the scum of earth as a result?

You claim its a simple and basic gesture, yet the history of often venerated organizations placed in a similar situation, doesn't support this. And it's hardly been a cause to paint these organizations as nefarious entities.

Charities should give back stolen money. It's immoral. And simply because other charities don't return stolen money doesn't mean this "sainted" Mother Teresa should be able to get away with it too. She's being held up as someone lofty, pure and moral but she's no better than a thief herself. She was 82 at the time of the conviction of Charles Keating and still very active, flying here and there. She found the time to write a letter or have a letter written which she then signed, to be sent to the Judge but she couldn't find the time to write a check returning the stolen money. She was a selfish bitch.

Yea, I know according to you organizations like the Boys and Girls Club, and the Children's Aid society are run by a bunch of selfish bitches, because they didn't give back the money they received from Madoff.

I'm also not sure how some old nun who took on a vow of poverty, who gained nothing personally by the money donated by Keating to an organization helping the destitute in India, can be accused of being selfish. But if that makes you feel morally better about yourself, than it is what it is.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 08:15 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Charities should give back stolen money. It's immoral. And simply because other charities don't return stolen money doesn't mean this "sainted" Mother Teresa should be able to get away with it too. She's being held up as someone lofty, pure and moral but she's no better than a thief herself. She was 82 at the time of the conviction of Charles Keating and still very active, flying here and there. She found the time to write a letter or have a letter written which she then signed, to be sent to the Judge but she couldn't find the time to write a check returning the stolen money. She was a selfish bitch.

Yea, I know according to you organizations like the Boys and Girls Club, and the Children's Aid society are run by a bunch of selfish bitches, because they didn't give back the money they received from Madoff.

I'm also not sure how some old nun who took on a vow of poverty, who gained nothing personally by the money donated by Keating to an organization helping the destitute in India, can be accused of being selfish. But if that makes you feel morally better about yourself, than it is what it is.

She used it, for her own purposes. Purposes that propelled her to international fame, and recognition in the church of Rome, where she was feted with praise and recognition.
When she was told it was ill-gotten money, she refused to take responsibility for the consequences of her using it for her purposes. That is unethical.

It's a game you should know well.
You are here to make yourself feel morally better than evil immoral atheists.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2016, 08:45 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 08:15 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Charities should give back stolen money. It's immoral. And simply because other charities don't return stolen money doesn't mean this "sainted" Mother Teresa should be able to get away with it too. She's being held up as someone lofty, pure and moral but she's no better than a thief herself. She was 82 at the time of the conviction of Charles Keating and still very active, flying here and there. She found the time to write a letter or have a letter written which she then signed, to be sent to the Judge but she couldn't find the time to write a check returning the stolen money. She was a selfish bitch.

Yea, I know according to you organizations like the Boys and Girls Club, and the Children's Aid society are run by a bunch of selfish bitches, because they didn't give back the money they received from Madoff.

I'm also not sure how some old nun who took on a vow of poverty, who gained nothing personally by the money donated by Keating to an organization helping the destitute in India, can be accused of being selfish. But if that makes you feel morally better about yourself, than it is what it is.

I don't get how strange you think it is to say, gained nothing personally.

What I guess only wealth is gain? Not status, image, Power, respect, wtc. From some corners of the world isn't personal gain to you.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Irrelevant. It's not about you. You claimed "objective morality" exists IN GENERAL. Your sample of one is meaningless.

It is about me, when you ask what would it take to falsify this view. I find little reason to believe that morality is subjective, folks such as yourself and others hardly make a good case for it. And that whatever views you have of morality, lack any real introspection or depth, and offers no real account, or history of moral beliefs at all.

Your entire contribution to the subject amounts to nothing more than a desire to vent your spleen, more driven by your contempt than any real consideration of the question.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 09:01 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  She used it, for her own purposes. Purposes that propelled her to international fame, and recognition in the church of Rome, where she was feted with praise and recognition.
When she was told it was ill-gotten money, she refused to take responsibility for the consequences of her using it for her purposes. That is unethical.

Yea, I know right, I mean she's the epitome of a fame whore, with an unquenchable desire even in her 80s for praise and recognition. A narcissist and a sociopath. A vermin on par with Hitler. A selfish bitch, who deserves a special place in hell.

I'm not catholic, if you want to frame her that way it doesn't offend me, if that was your intention. But it reveals more to me about you than her. It's like the folks who demonize Obama a great deal, who reveal more about themselves in the process than they do about him.

Quote:It's a game you should know well.
You are here to make yourself feel morally better than evil immoral atheists.

Sorry I don't play that game either, though I may have a variety of low opinions about individuals such as yourself, I'm not inclined to see myself as morally superior. And I have no qualms in admitting that in terms of being a moral person, there's likely to be plenty of atheists here who outshine me at every turn.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 09:01 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 08:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 08:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Irrelevant. It's not about you. You claimed "objective morality" exists IN GENERAL. Your sample of one is meaningless.

It is about me, when you ask what would it take to falsify this view. I find little reason to believe that morality is subjective, folks such as yourself and others hardly make a good case for it. And that whatever views you have of morality, lack any real introspection or depth, and offers no real account, or history of moral beliefs at all.

Your entire contribution to the subject amounts to nothing more than a desire to vent your spleen, more driven by your contempt than any real consideration of the question.

You never responded to ANY of the SPECIFIC points and questions, you dishonest troll. It's NOT about you, if you want to falsify FOR US, (why again are you here, if it's all about YOU ?? No one cares what you believe here) you have to make a rational argument, and present EVIDENCE. You can't even begin that. We don't have to do ANYTHING. YOU claim it's "objective". Anthropology refutes you. You have presented NOTHING except some flimsy personal anecdotes to support your flimsy opinion. That may work in Bible College. It's doesn't work here.

(15-03-2016 08:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And that whatever views you have of morality, lack any real introspection or depth, and offers no real account, or history of moral beliefs at all.

All irrelevant ad homs, and clap-trap, reverend Tommy.
You failed again.
Why are you here ?












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