Mother Teresa to be made a saint
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15-03-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:36 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Consider

Well.. they both believe in an objective reality.

The problem is they both believe in effectively different objective moralities.

So, there's a problem right there.

Consider

Do they both believe that lying is wrong, that taking innocent life is wrong? That we should love our neighbor as ourself, in the golden rule, that adultery is wrong, that they should pursue justices? Do they both value mercy, and forgiveness? That we have a responsibility to the poor, the orphan and the widow?

I don't think many muslims would disagree with the 10 commandments.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do they both believe that lying is wrong, that taking innocent life is wrong? That we should love our neighbor as yourself, in the golden rule, that adultery is wrong, that they should pursue justices? Do they both value mercy, and forgiveness? That we have a responsibility to the poor, the orphan and the widow?

I don't think many Muslims would disagree with the 10 commandments.

Um... except they don't follow (As divine decree) the ten commandments.

So.. the ten commandments aren't 'objective' either. Consider

Also, thank you for not listing the differences.

Nicely selective there.

So.. preparing halal meat?

Is this 'objectively' good?

What about punishments for crimes in Sharia law countries. Are these 'objectively' good?

How about women and how their rights are treated? Are these 'objectively' good?

I'm sure others can offer other examples from both sides.

You just posting the similarities between the two still doesn't make anything 'objective' appear.
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15-03-2016, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2016 06:10 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:46 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Um... except they don't follow (As divine decree) the ten commandments.

So.. the ten commandments aren't 'objective' either. Consider

Also, thank you for not listing the differences.

Nicely selective there.

So.. preparing halal meat?

Is this 'objectively' good?

What about punishments for crimes in Sharia law countries. Are these 'objectively' good?


How about women and how their rights are treated? Are these 'objectively' good?

I'm sure others can offer other examples from both sides.

You just posting the similarities between the two still doesn't make anything 'objective' appear.

And this is the problem when folks who are not muslims, are not all that familiar with Islam attempt to speak on it's behalf. I don't know of any muslims that would claim that me not eating halal meat is immoral.

Secondly the question of how moral transgression should be punished, is not the same as the question of what's moral or not. The question of whether you believe adultery is immoral, not the same as to how an adulterous should be punished.

Do muslims disagree that women should be treated with dignity and respect? My muslims friends would be surprised to hear that according to you we hold different views of women.

All you and others here are going to do is present some grotesque version of a hypothetical muslim, a caricature and expect me to take your ignorance seriously. I can tell you this much, if an actual muslim were here, and we were having a discussion about out differing moral perspectives, it's unlikely to even remotely resemble the one I'm suppose to be having with your hypothetical one. You and others here are not very good at representing other religious groups.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2016 06:30 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 05:36 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Consider

Well.. they both believe in an objective reality.

The problem is they both believe in effectively different objective moralities.

So, there's a problem right there.

Consider

Do they both believe that lying is wrong, that taking innocent life is wrong? That we should love our neighbor as ourself, in the golden rule, that adultery is wrong, that they should pursue justices? Do they both value mercy, and forgiveness? That we have a responsibility to the poor, the orphan and the widow?

I don't think many muslims would disagree with the 10 commandments.

Neither would many christians. I think the knowingly petty god related half are things you don't find christians think are wrong.

I don't think many modern society christians think graven images are wrong or not honoring the Sabbath is wrong. That coveting I'd wrong either... because these are more encouraged to them to be irrelevant.

So only the 10 commandments about x thing you choose represents the point here? ..why even choose a point like that then only limit what you pick out if it?

You're not any good at representing anyone's religious group, not even your own. Because you've openly said you base a lot on your personal experience and wife/community. Which is unlikely even close to 200 people, out north of a billion that you want to associate commonality with, with your including concepts of "world view" by comping issues you think matter while ignoring other issues for just no differences but arbitrary favor. It's a weak point of reference.

Nothing you've put out in this thread doesn't massively apply backwards to your points & those in favor praising Teresa... And that keeps adding somehow with each new idea sprouting in this topic

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
Tommy,

You never read the Quran. It may no longer be "said" to mean the bad things it says, (just like you people tend to gloss over the OT) BOTH of which in themselves refute your "objective" nonsense as they both changed, as the culture CHANGED.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674831

Do you think the cannibals who used to boil missionaries had "objective morality" ?
Facepalm

Fuck. This is so stupid.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think many muslims would disagree with the 10 commandments.

Then you're even more delusional than we thought. Numbers of them think it's moral to kill many with suicide bombs. Is that "objective morality" ? Facepalm
So clearly there are MANY MANY exceptions to your "moral" groups. You think they all "missed something". What was that, and how is it they are so numerous ?
What EXACTLY could falsify the "objective morality" claim ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2016, 06:57 PM
Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 06:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think many muslims would disagree with the 10 commandments.

Then you're even more delusional than we thought. Numbers of them think it's moral to kill many with suicide bombs. Is that "objective morality" ? Facepalm

What's the difference between those who support suicide bombing in defense of their nations and communities, and those that support controlled airstrikes for the same reason? Is it just a difference in means?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 07:07 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2016 07:14 PM by Tomasia.)
Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 06:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What EXACTLY could falsify the "objective morality" claim ?

What would falsify it? The day that I am able to steal your wallet, and I can just tell myself that there's nothing wrong about it, that whatever guilt, or wrongness I feel about that act, is merely an uncomfortable sensation, like an upset stomach, partly elicited by culture conditioning, with a straight face.

Whenever I'm able to tell myself this, and not be lying to myself, I would cease to believe that morality is objective.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2016, 07:19 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 04:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’d claim that if you were to a take a random group of Muslims, a random group of Hindus, Mormons, Christians etc… and ask them what they believe is right and wrong, you’ll find far more agreements than disagreements.
Why don't you answer the question I asked? You accused me of something, spent multiple posts whining about it, then when backed into the corner you change the subject.

You aren't by chance, a politician by trade, are you?

(15-03-2016 04:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you asked all these parties to write out their own version of the 10 most important moral obligations, and rules, than these list would look remarkably similar.

Wow. I can see this coming, horns blaring and the headlights of irony and hypocrisy blazing...

(15-03-2016 04:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  They likely agree that taking innocent life is wrong, that murder is wrong, that lying is wrong, that adultery is wrong, that they have an obligation to take care of the poor and destitute, to pursue justice, to do unto others as they would have done to themselves, to love their neighbor, to value kindness, love, charity, fairness, more so than hatred, greed, or cruelty.

And there it is. You accuse me of trying to speak for religions that you presume I know nothing about, then you go and do the same. Or are you claiming to be qualified to represent the other religions you mention?

Remember?
Quote:No, I'm pointing out that you're unlikely to be a valid spokesperson as to what those beliefs are, that your take on Islamic and Mormon, etc.. views on morality are likely to cause these respective parties to face-palm themselves. Are those views in general primarily deontological, more akin to consequentialism, more represented by virtue ethics, etc.....? If I wanted to argue about a muslims take on morality as opposed to my own Christian views, then I'll prefer to argue with an actual muslim, and not an ignorant atheists. You can speak for yourself, and perhaps even speak for other atheists, but that's the extent of it.

You do realize that the qualities you describe are those of a social species and have nothing to do with religion, right?

So what next? Ignore, change the subject, avoid the question, or actually answer?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-03-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Mother Teresa to be made a saint
(15-03-2016 07:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What would falsify it? The day that I am able to steal your wallet, and I can just tell myself that there's nothing wrong about it, that whatever guilt, or wrongness I feel about that act, is merely an uncomfortable sensation, like an upset stomach, partly elicited by culture conditioning, with a straight face.

Whenever I'm able to tell myself this, and not be lying to myself, I would cease to believe that morality is objective.

When you use "I" consistently throughout your argument, that would be "subjective", wouldn't it? Drinking Beverage

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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