Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
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26-06-2015, 12:03 AM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(25-06-2015 02:36 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Call of the wild:

Just admit it. Just like other christians, you believe, not because there is proof of god, but because you want to believe. That way, you don't need to provide this fallacious 'proof' which, let's face it, is easy to destroy. Then, you can go back home and retain at least some semblance of dignity.

Laugh out load
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26-06-2015, 11:14 AM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Allegedly "Paul met and spoke with eyewitnesses to Jesus and his Resurrection"

Thanks for yet again proving my assertions.....allegedly "met and spoke with eyewitnesses" is not a direct eyewitness testimony now is it child? If I told you a story about my magical life creating purple bigfoot in my backyard, and you were ignorant enough to believe me and go spread the story, and then someone else took that ridiculous story you told and wrote it down, he is NOT an eyewitness....that does not credibility make.

The problem with your analogy is, Paul said that Jesus appeared to him as well, so that is not hearsay, that is personal testimony. So I guess your analogy just doesn't work in light of 1 Corin 15:8.

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Paul never met jesus, what else you got?

Ok, lets play the game then....so you've never met George Washington, so therefore, George Washington didn't exist. Moving right along..

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Again, you really suck at biblical historicity.

Yeah, I suck at it, but you are so great at it, right? Man please.

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Philo of alexandria was a reknowned historian who resided and recorded the events in the area...never mentions jesus.

Argument from silence. In other words, fallacious reasoning. Next..

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Argumentum ad populum is not the litmus test for truth child.

Neither is the argument from silence that you presented above.

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  How many people have heard of jesus has zero bearing on anything, you can thank emperor Constantine who banished all other forms of worship under royal decree and threat of death, for the popularity of christianity. Again, biblical history is not your strong suit.

Nonsense. Again, this is another famous quip for unbelieving skeptics. They always want to throw Constantine out there, as if Christianity didn't exist before Constantine came to power or something. In fact, I had to straighten a guy out on facebook regarding this very subject Laugh out load

You talk about biblical history? Well, here is what I do know..Christianity had already spread throughout the Roman Empire hundreds of years before Constantine was even thought of.

1. Tacitus spoke of how the Christians were tortured under the Emperor Nero. Nero died around 68 C.E, and if he was already torturing Christians before his death, then obviously Christianity had reached the highest office in the land BEFORE 68 C.E. But Christianity began around 33 C.E...see where I'm going with this? So to make it seem like Christianity didn't get any notoriety until Constantine came to power is a fairy tale. Now, either you think I am some amateur apologist who you can just run any ole thing on, or you are just ignorant of the fact...either way, you are jacked up.

2. Christianity originated in Jerusalem. But Paul was writing to a CHURCH (around 53 C.E) that was located in the city of Corinth. Corinth is about 817 miles from Jerusalem, and as far as I'm concerned, there was no automobiles or airplanes back then...so the fact that Paul was writing letters to an already established Church, 817 miles from the city that Christianity originated in...goes to show how far Christianity had spread, some 20 years after the crucifixion. So again, this "Constantine did this, Constantine started that" crap just won't work. Christianity was already spread hundreds of years before he came to power.

3. Pliny the Younger died around 113 C.E...and he was the governor of Bithynia (modern day Turkey). Guess what? Bithynia is about 2,527 road miles from Jerusalem, yet Pliny is writing a letter asking Emperor Trajan how to deal with the Christians in Bithynia...and this letter was written around 112 C.E (according to wiki)...so Christianity spread 2,527 miles from Jerusalem by 112 C.E...yet you have the nerve to say we have to thank Constantine for the spread of Christianity, when he didn't even come to power until 306 C.E, almost 200 years AFTER Pliny's letter to Trajan?

I mean, I could actually go on and on..but 3 seems enough for now.

But I am the one who doesn't know history?? Laugh out load

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Please seek an education in christianity, biblical history and background of jesus before you try to enter the ring with the pros child. Here, a recommendation for you...

GWOG, with all due respect, sir...but I was smarter than you before I joined this forum...I am currently, as the present day grows old, smarter than you. And 50 years from now, if we are both still breathing, I will still be smarter than you. Cool

(24-06-2015 02:33 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Dr Price by the way is a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, a group of 150 writers and scholars who study the historicity of Jesus, the organizer of a Web community for those interested in the history of Christianity.

Education
BA, MTS (1978)
PhD in Systematic Theology (1981)
PhD in New Testament (1993)

Yeah, Robert Price is one of the very few people within historical, biblical, or theological academia who doesn't believe that Jesus even existed, let alone the Resurrection. And he already admits that his views regarding the historical Jesus are within the minority Big Grin
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26-06-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:14 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Yeah, Robert Price is one of the very few people within historical, biblical, or theological academia who doesn't believe that Jesus even existed, let alone the Resurrection. And he already admits that his views regarding the historical Jesus are within the minority Big Grin

... And Richard Carrier?

He puts forward a convincing case that jesus never had an Earthly existence either.

You ever read Carrier?

In fact, have you ever read ANYTHING?

In fact, CAN YOU READ?

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26-06-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  And Richard Carrier?

He puts forward a convincing case that jesus never had an Earthly existence either.

You ever read Carrier?

In fact, have you ever read ANYTHING?

In fact, CAN YOU READ?

Richard Carrier is another one of those guys in the minority. Carrier and Price are indeed in the minority.

But, that being said, Carrier has already had his ass handed to him by Bill Craig in their debate on the Resurrection. The consensus is that he lost the debate, and even he kinda/sorta admitted to losing.
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26-06-2015, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2015 11:54 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:43 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  And Richard Carrier?

He puts forward a convincing case that jesus never had an Earthly existence either.

You ever read Carrier?

In fact, have you ever read ANYTHING?

In fact, CAN YOU READ?

Richard Carrier is another one of those guys in the minority. Carrier and Price are indeed in the minority.

But, that being said, Carrier has already had his ass handed to him by Bill Craig in their debate on the Resurrection. The consensus is that he lost the debate, and even he kinda/sorta admitted to losing.

Ah, I see. Truth is a function of number. I didn't realise.

I'll watch the vid of Craig v's Carrier and reach my own conclusion.

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26-06-2015, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2015 12:00 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
I'm kinda baffled that the number of miles (distances between Jerusalem and other locations mentioned in NT) is being thrown out there along with decades, as though people in ancient times couldn't travel by boat or by horse/cart, couldn't make a trip across that distance and back in a year... especially given that half of the accounts of Paul in the New Testament are of exactly such trips across Asia Minor, to Rome, and so on, in addition to sending flocks of young "letter-carriers" and "witnesses" back and forth among the well-connected cities of that civilization.

From what I've seen of the story, part of the early Christian church's narrative is that they were so unwelcome in Jerusalem that they flocked northward to the Gentiles under the influence of Paul and his troupe of subordinate disciples (for this reason, I often refer to modern Christianity as "Paulianity", as it seems to me to be more heavily influenced by his Pharisee views than by those of Jesus himself). Assuming that the writing about Emperor Nero's persecution of the church is factual, and not made up later by church leaders assembling a coherent story and looking to place themselves in a historical timeframe of "before", which I'll grant for this argument, twenty years is MORE than enough time for a fledgling cult to establish itself in numerous cities and grow across Asia Minor and Italy to the point of disturbing both the Emperor and the governors of the districts. The Roman empire built well-engineered, fast, well-traveled roads (appia) across their empire; it's What They Did, how they conquered half that continent and beyond.

So I think you're being somewhat disingenuous by suggesting that it must have taken yeeeeeeears for word to spread, and that this indicates eyewitnesses to Christ were among the early Christian fathers. Not so. Even if this is so, which I do not grant, it doesn't mean Jesus was a god, or that those who knew him thought he was, as opposed to those crafting/inventing/writing the legend years or decades or even centuries after his death. From what I've read, it seems likely Jesus was a real man, perhaps a rabbi, and that his followers were scattered after his execution, that Paul heard of their faith (perhaps with an eye to infiltration and destruction of the cult, originally) re-crafted the new religion along Pharisee social-belief lines (more conservative than Liberal Reformer Jesus) into a belief-structure made to attack the Greek "open-minded" culture that he clearly saw as a threat to his Hebrew social/legal beliefs, which continued to be re-crafted and shaped by others of his cult after Paul's death, and continues to this day as a dominant religion in our culture.

As many have noted, our Western culture is a dynamic tension between the Greek/Roman philosophies of individual liberty and free thought and the Hebraic ideas about social/religious order and group-judgement. Paul has much to do with that injection of the latter into the former, and our culture is a product of that. Elizabeth Gilbert put it well in Committed (sequel to Eat, Pray, Love) when she said, "Our legal code is mostly Greek; our moral code is mostly Hebrew. We have no way of thinking about independence and intellect and the sanctity of the individual that is not Greek. We have no way of thinking about righteousness and God's will that is not Hebrew. Our sense of fairness is Greek; our sense of justice is Hebrew."

This is entirely the doing of Paul of Tarsus... I think it is he, not Jesus, who should be considered the greatest historical figure, even though Christians give the big JC the credit.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-06-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:43 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  And Richard Carrier?

He puts forward a convincing case that jesus never had an Earthly existence either.

You ever read Carrier?

In fact, have you ever read ANYTHING?

In fact, CAN YOU READ?

Richard Carrier is another one of those guys in the minority. Carrier and Price are indeed in the minority.

But, that being said, Carrier has already had his ass handed to him by Bill Craig in their debate on the Resurrection. The consensus is that he lost the debate, and even he kinda/sorta admitted to losing.

Oh, ffs. Will you do your fookin' homework?

The debate that you are talking about took place in 2010. Carrier had barely started his work on the historicity of jebus. He didn't complete his work until March OF THIS YEAR !!

Carrier now has a much stronger case and is a lot more sure of his facts.

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26-06-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:43 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  And Richard Carrier?

He puts forward a convincing case that jesus never had an Earthly existence either.

You ever read Carrier?

In fact, have you ever read ANYTHING?

In fact, CAN YOU READ?

Richard Carrier is another one of those guys in the minority. Carrier and Price are indeed in the minority.

But, that being said, Carrier has already had his ass handed to him by Bill Craig in their debate on the Resurrection. The consensus is that he lost the debate, and even he kinda/sorta admitted to losing.

He didn't kinda/sorta admit to losing, he explains very clearly what his goal was.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-06-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
(26-06-2015 11:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  From what I've read, it seems likely Jesus was a real man, perhaps a rabbi, and that his followers were scattered after his execution, that Paul heard of their faith (perhaps with an eye to infiltration and destruction of the cult, originally) re-crafted the new religion along Pharisee social-belief lines (more conservative than Liberal Reformer Jesus) into a belief-structure made to attack the Greek "open-minded" culture that he clearly saw as a threat to his Hebrew social/legal beliefs, which continued to be re-crafted and shaped by others of his cult after Paul's death, and continues to this day as a dominant religion in our culture.

See this if you haven't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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26-06-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Much Happier now that I'm an Atheist
I haven't, GHNTA. Thanks! Looks great. *settling in to watch*

I've been kinda out of the loop for the last decade. Still catching up. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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