Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
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18-03-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(18-03-2017 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  I blame Obama administration for what they did to Ukraine. Obama administration started this mess in Ukraine. Putin reacted.
Yeah, they made Putin do it, right? Just like sinners make god throw them into hell.
OR
Putin didnt just "react", he basically -not even trying to pretend very hard- invaded a sovereign country and broke international law. He did this because Russia is longing for access to the mediterranean via the Crimea ever since Catherine II and the Ottoman Empire.

Playing "political chess" is one thing, invading other countries is a different game. If you arent able to draw a line between politics and military agression, i am not much surprised about you having the view of the world around you as you seem to have.

You also said you have more information than i have. Considering your acute fear of sharia law in the United States i am more than sceptical about the quality of your information.

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18-03-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(18-03-2017 05:49 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Putin didnt just "react", he basically -not even trying to pretend very hard- invaded a sovereign country and broke international law. He did this because Russia is longing for access to the mediterranean via the Crimea ever since Catherine II and the Ottoman Empire.

That's not to defend Putin, but in this case Alla has something like a point. I fully expected Putin to go for the Crimean after Janukovich was removed.

It's a very long journey leading up to that, and in this case I don't think any other Russian leader would have reacted differently. It's on the same lines as the Argentinians capturing the Falklands back in '82. Only larger, since it is, as you said, Russias door to the black Sea and the Mediterranean.

Nato moved closer and closer on Russias border during the last 3 decades. I would go as far as saying, Nato made Putin. He thrives on the Russian fear of being strangled by the Cold War enemy. When Nato allowed the eastern european countries into the alliance, I kept asking myself, which will be the step too far and shook my head over the needless provocation of Russia.

Yeah, well, as they say, we reap what we sow. And that's Putin. Brought to us by 3 decades of needless provocations.
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19-03-2017, 02:08 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(18-03-2017 05:45 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:28 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  And this is who promises to make the US great again, save them from religious extremists and deal with unemployment?

If American voters had done their homework, they could easily have found out that Trump lies 60-70% of the time according to the fact checkers. He should never have gotten past the primaries.

But those lies are so seductive... I think they had to know that a lot of them were lies. They let themselves be led.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-03-2017, 02:46 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(18-03-2017 07:00 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:49 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Putin didnt just "react", he basically -not even trying to pretend very hard- invaded a sovereign country and broke international law. He did this because Russia is longing for access to the mediterranean via the Crimea ever since Catherine II and the Ottoman Empire.

That's not to defend Putin, but in this case Alla has something like a point. I fully expected Putin to go for the Crimean after Janukovich was removed.

It's a very long journey leading up to that, and in this case I don't think any other Russian leader would have reacted differently. It's on the same lines as the Argentinians capturing the Falklands back in '82. Only larger, since it is, as you said, Russias door to the black Sea and the Mediterranean.

Nato moved closer and closer on Russias border during the last 3 decades. I would go as far as saying, Nato made Putin. He thrives on the Russian fear of being strangled by the Cold War enemy. When Nato allowed the eastern european countries into the alliance, I kept asking myself, which will be the step too far and shook my head over the needless provocation of Russia.

Yeah, well, as they say, we reap what we sow. And that's Putin. Brought to us by 3 decades of needless provocations.

I dont deny a single thing some western/NATO politicians did. But Putin decided to break international law, Putin decided to go for a barely covered military option. Putin is responsible Putins decision, noone else. Also: If some eastern european countries, sovereign countries, decide to this or that, to join this or that, its not Putins business, thats what sovereignity is all about. After all, most eastern european countries didnt have a choice too when they were swallowed by the Soviet Union. Noone asked Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia when they were simply annexed in 1940. Noone asked ukrainian people when their countr(ies) was occupied by the red army under Trotsky in 1923. In 1990 the people of the Ukraine voted with 90% majority to become independent. Its not Putins business to overrule that, like it wasnt ever CIAs business to overrule the deicision of the people of Chile, Cuba or Iran.

What did you expect these counries above to do after the USSR ceased to exist? Stay within the house that was their prison for over half a century and happily live with their former prison ward? If Britain decides to leave the EU, we dont invade Cornwall, or pretend there is a Cornwallian freedom fighters movement and send military equipment and ignite and fuel the fire.

Putin is responsible for Crimea like the CIA, not Castro, is responsible for the Bay of Pigs.

You could just as well say, Putin is reaping what Lenin/Stalin sowed.

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19-03-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(18-03-2017 04:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  GirlyMan, this is the link
https://www.conservativereview.com/comme...tertraffic

Thanks, Alla. Interesting. I checked it out on Wiki too. Apparently there've been attempts to break up the 9th circuit for quite a while now. wiki says since 1993 but Fox says since 1941. Wonder why they haven't succeeded in the past?

#sigh
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19-03-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(19-03-2017 02:46 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What did you expect these counries above to do after the USSR ceased to exist? Stay within the house that was their prison for over half a century and happily live with their former prison ward? If Britain decides to leave the EU, we dont invade Cornwall, or pretend there is a Cornwallian freedom fighters movement and send military equipment and ignite and fuel the fire.

Putin is responsible for Crimea like the CIA, not Castro, is responsible for the Bay of Pigs.

You could just as well say, Putin is reaping what Lenin/Stalin sowed.

It's not what I expected the Eastern European countries to do, it's that I expected NATO to be a little more level headed. They virtually surrounded Russia while it still was consolidating after the breakup of the Soviet Union. It was as if NATO couldn't accept that it was as redundant as the Warszaw pact and should have been replaced by something new where Russia could have been a part of instead of still being put into a stranglehold.

Before the rise of Putin, of course. Or at least before Putin showed his real colors, which didn't happen for half a decade before he took over from Jelzin.

And it's funny, you mentioned Stalin. It was actually Stalin donating the Crimean to Ukraine. Back then, part of the Soviet Union of course, but up until then it was Russia. The rest is as had to be expected. The Russians feared for their Black Sea Naval base and took action. It's the same with their involvement in Syria. They wouldn't care one bit over that region if they hadn't their one and only regional naval base there.

One doesn't have to defend what they do, but it's very understandable. It's all for strategic reasons. Contesting the East of Ukraine is a different matter entirely and not as easily understood.
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19-03-2017, 09:37 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
Quote:And it's funny, you mentioned Stalin. It was actually Stalin donating the Crimean to Ukraine

Afaik, it was Khrushchev. In any case i am not impressed. Transfering part of your empire from one country within to another is like moving a € from your left pocket to your right. Its not really a donation.

Of course, like you, i (think i) understand what the various parties did...and possibly even why. But i like to make a difference between understanding and accepting such actions as justifiable.

Otherwise our positions dont seem to differ much. Like i said, not that i think NATO / the west was acting wisely. It would have needed exceptional politicians to handle such a situation like the end of the cold war, but there were none around, and there still arent if i may add. Coming back to Putin/Russia: An exceptional russian leader could and would have made a big difference in the past years, but Putin is just a ex KGB spook/brute. An exceptional russian politician could and would have pulled quite a few countries of eastern and central Europe to his side. I wold even consider Germany moving politically closer to Russia Like during the prussian era. Instdead, Putin goes with the old warmongering and powerplay, blackmailing foreign countries, invading them and acting like a dictator in his own (not that the US is and was much better in terms of invading foreign nations, but this is about Putin and Russia). I dont think he is doing that because of how the *west* acted. I think he does what he does because he is what he is.

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19-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(19-03-2017 09:37 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Of course, like you, i (think i) understand what the various parties did...and possibly even why. But i like to make a difference between understanding and accepting such actions as justifiable.

I don't accept what both sides do or did. Maybe that's because I was old enough to remember what happened in Afghanistan and young enough to be fooled into viewing the Mujahedins as all good, fighting the red scare. Which was the official tale at the time.

Putin of course is a borderline dictator out for a power play at the expense of others. But understanding the Russian goals doesn't make me defend them. There would have been numerous ways for a less criminal approach. Such as actually trying to negotiate a new deal for the fleet on the Crimean with the new Ukrainian administration.
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19-03-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(19-03-2017 07:44 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 04:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  GirlyMan, this is the link
https://www.conservativereview.com/comme...tertraffic

Thanks, Alla. Interesting. I checked it out on Wiki too. Apparently there've been attempts to break up the 9th circuit for quite a while now. wiki says since 1993 but Fox says since 1941. Wonder why they haven't succeeded in the past?

They may succeed now, Republicans have more power and we live in different times. We have cultural civil war.

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19-03-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: Muslim Ban 2.0 - suspended Nationwide.
(19-03-2017 01:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  We have cultural civil war.

Mentioning Republicans and Culture in one breath is an oxymoron.
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