Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
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23-08-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
Right - I will go through the Muslim challenge and will convert. Better be careful what I say should I join ISIS considering the CIA, MI5, FBI,Mossad and all the others infidels might be reading this.

Lets start - I chose randomly from the miracles in the Koran website - literally first click and I WILL CARRY ON as long as our Muslim newbie participates.
Of course she does not know my background - being king of fallacy exposing and a sharp intellect that even makes God run away and disappear.(well, thats actually true)

Lets start:

Quote:Predictions in the Quran: THE EXPLORATION OF SPACE
O company of jinn and human beings. If you are able to pierce through the confines of the heavens and Earth, pierce through them. You will not pierce through, except with a clear authority. (Qur'an, 55:33)

Muslim - how can this possibly be a prediction when the "heavens" does not necessarily mean "space" but can also be various supernatural realms such are were angels are ?

Granted the arabic word used (As-Samāwāti) can mean "The sky" I will carry on.
Assuming it means "The sky + Earth" = problem no 1 is that the verse is hedged by using the term *IF* you are able to pierce the sky.
Once it is hedged it is no longer a prediction and at most a possibility which many cultures thought of even before the Quran. Many cultures, especially the Greeks dreamed about going beyond the sky - so whats the big deal if Mohammad copied these fantasies ? = Not a prediction.

Secondly the last part of the verse is completely wasteful and superfluous - how can you validate "clear authority" has been given if it was Allah ? Its not like a voice came out of the sky and gave authority ! Many heretical non muslims went to space - did they all get authority from Allah (the authority is Allah according to some translations but this is not explicit in the verse)
If NASA or some other space agency is the clear authority how is this a prediction ????????? Basically superfluous words in the Quran + waste of ink.


So - the first article I came across has failed and I wont be converting to Islam today.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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23-08-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
Muslim:

Regarding all the claims of embyology in the quran as miraculous - I have gone through this previously with live debates and easily refuted the Qurans claims - however better to go through a scholarly professional resource rather than myself repeating everything and spending lots of time:

See
http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co....tents.html (this website has easier to navigate parts for various sections)
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-arti...-approach/
(you can download the whole article from below- but its a big article and utterly demolished the Qurans claims).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/110224187/2-10...ut-Nothing

All that is required is refuting one sentence of the Quran and the whole thing collapses like dominoes. However your burden of proof requires you validate EVERY VERSE - to substantiate the Qurans authenticity. Granted if you authenticated 95% the likelyhood that its 100% valid will be increased (but not certain).
However - all I need to show is one problem - and its all nullified.
Thats a tough call ! The Quran cannot stand even validating one surah.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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23-08-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
...lets start at the beginning of the Quran.
Quote:1:1
Bismi Allahi arrahmani arraheem
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

How do you know its in the name of Allah and this is a God ?
Mohammed got some alleged revelations dictated to him or some others helped compose the scripture - but what method can possibly indicate it MUST be a God dictating via revelation ? (as opposed to inspiration, poetic literature writing or plagiarism from other alleged revelations such as the Bible)

Quote:Most Merciful
Merciful ? Really ?

Allah makes these sort of congenital deformations and you call it merciful ?
http://harlequin-ichthyosis.wikispaces.com/

(I have previously posted the images - but it may disturb some people, as your now aware of my mercy on other people from viewing such horror if they don't want to see this)

.....and I have only reached the first verse into the Quran.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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23-08-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
The idea that the Quran contains scientific revelations before we had knowledge of them is a misguided attempt by Muslims to reconcile their belief with science.

An earlier poster said that Muslims can't even read the original Quran- this is true. I was taught how to read Arabic- but by read I really mean sound out so I can say the words without knowing what they mean. Back-asswards if anything is.

Now, all you really need to do is read the Quran in your native language without trying to bend over backwards and delude yourself about what you're reading. Which brings me to the hadiths- I always found this idea irritating. Why does this perfect book need something else? Isn't it supposed to be clear to everyone who reads it?

Anyway, you have to throw out your own innate sense of morality to go along with a lot of the stuff in there. Having slaves (having sex with those slaves), abusing wives, saying women are less intelligent than men...anyone sensing a theme here?

Islam is a religion written by men for men. Just like most others. When I hear Muslim, I hear "I think men are better than women". Of course, they'll deny this and say something about how they're just different and occupy different roles, blah blah blah. I'm hearing echoes of "separate but equal" here.

It's so embarrassing seeing how Muslim countries treat their women. Some of this stuff isn't in the Quran, but the culture it helps perpetuate is obvious. Saudi Arabia is literally the only country in the world where women can't drive. Female genital mutilation is sickening. Stoning and killing women for how they dress or who they had sex with (though this happens to men too). Punishing rape victims.

Islam is bad for women. And what's bad for women is bad for society, seeing as we're most of the population and that we tend to be the primary care-givers for children. I want to shake the people who've bought into it so whole-heartedly. Wake up. Do the moral thing not what the Quran says is "moral".

Also, on another note, the whole covering your body isn't just demeaning for women, it's unhealthy. How are you supposed to get your vitamin D if you can only show your face and hands (sometimes not even those)?

Okay, I need to stop now. This takes too much energy Smile.
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23-08-2014, 08:33 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 07:57 PM)freed Wrote:  The idea that the Quran contains scientific revelations before we had knowledge of them is a misguided attempt by Muslims to reconcile their belief with science.

An earlier poster said that Muslims can't even read the original Quran- this is true. I was taught how to read Arabic- but by read I really mean sound out so I can say the words without knowing what they mean. Back-asswards if anything is.

Now, all you really need to do is read the Quran in your native language without trying to bend over backwards and delude yourself about what you're reading. Which brings me to the hadiths- I always found this idea irritating. Why does this perfect book need something else? Isn't it supposed to be clear to everyone who reads it?

Anyway, you have to throw out your own innate sense of morality to go along with a lot of the stuff in there. Having slaves (having sex with those slaves), abusing wives, saying women are less intelligent than men...anyone sensing a theme here?

Islam is a religion written by men for men. Just like most others. When I hear Muslim, I hear "I think men are better than women". Of course, they'll deny this and say something about how they're just different and occupy different roles, blah blah blah. I'm hearing echoes of "separate but equal" here.

It's so embarrassing seeing how Muslim countries treat their women. Some of this stuff isn't in the Quran, but the culture it helps perpetuate is obvious. Saudi Arabia is literally the only country in the world where women can't drive. Female genital mutilation is sickening. Stoning and killing women for how they dress or who they had sex with (though this happens to men too). Punishing rape victims.

Islam is bad for women. And what's bad for women is bad for society, seeing as we're most of the population and that we tend to be the primary care-givers for children. I want to shake the people who've bought into it so whole-heartedly. Wake up. Do the moral thing not what the Quran says is "moral".

Also, on another note, the whole covering your body isn't just demeaning for women, it's unhealthy. How are you supposed to get your vitamin D if you can only show your face and hands (sometimes not even those)?

Okay, I need to stop now. This takes too much energy Smile.

Interesting last point - post revolution Iran now has some empirical evidence that there is harm caused by vitamin D deficiency causing increased MS as an example.
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitamin-...sclerosis/
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/84/11/e2.96
(technically the population could take vitamin D supplements - but God gave them Sun Shine and they covered themselves up in rebellion and punished with MS for their sins.)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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23-08-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 07:12 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 06:52 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  1 - Can't wait, I'm sure it won't be like all the other times someone has told us this.
After we finish discussing the other thread (what is a proof)


Quote:2 - How many other religious texts have you honestly studied.
The Bible thoroughly, and a few of others but not very much
Almost all other religions can be refuted in the above proof.
Quote:3 - Name these facts of which you speak. I for one am all ears.
You can read about them
Miracles of Quran
but not to read one topic then come and try to refute it, take your time and read seeking truth

Quote:4 - How do you know they weren't of haven't been altered?
Islam has a unique science and method of authenticating texts called "Hadith"
but this apply for prophet quotes and statement, there is no need to do that for Quran, because the original copy exists now
[Image: 220px-Uthman_Koran_Taschkent_a.jpg]
Not like the Bible which has many versions and no body knows where is the original one

ooooh I enjoy perusing the hadith;

From the Hadith:

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.

Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.

Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.

Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.

Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.

Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.

Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.

Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.

Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.

Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

looks like some heavy stuff Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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24-08-2014, 01:50 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
Where can I get the Blu Ray of this "Hadith"?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-08-2014, 06:12 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 08:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 07:12 AM)Muslim Wrote:  After we finish discussing the other thread (what is a proof)


The Bible thoroughly, and a few of others but not very much
Almost all other religions can be refuted in the above proof.
You can read about them
Miracles of Quran
but not to read one topic then come and try to refute it, take your time and read seeking truth

Islam has a unique science and method of authenticating texts called "Hadith"
but this apply for prophet quotes and statement, there is no need to do that for Quran, because the original copy exists now
[Image: 220px-Uthman_Koran_Taschkent_a.jpg]
Not like the Bible which has many versions and no body knows where is the original one

ooooh I enjoy perusing the hadith;

From the Hadith:

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.

Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.

Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.

Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.

Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.

Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.

Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.

Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.

Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.

Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

looks like some heavy stuff Rolleyes
What are your objections on these Hadith?
Please open a new thread for each single subject?
I don't debate all things at once!
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24-08-2014, 06:17 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 12:26 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Christainity is the one true religion because it is older and the bible says so. The bible matches science. Hebrews are the true religion because they are the oldest and their books say so.
Christianity is the easiest religion to be refuted
too much errors and contradictions in the Bible, are very clear

I'll debate you about that later.
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24-08-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 06:17 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 12:26 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Christainity is the one true religion because it is older and the bible says so. The bible matches science. Hebrews are the true religion because they are the oldest and their books say so.
Christianity is the easiest religion to be refuted
too much errors and contradictions in the Bible, are very clear

I'll debate you about that later.

It's always 'later' with you. Man up or shut up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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