Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
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24-08-2014, 06:27 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 01:03 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  When you have a dialogue with a Muslim, bear in mind that they haven't actually read the Koran because it is in a language they can't understand and they can't read it in their own language.

They don't actually know what their religion is. They know there is an Allah and they have to fast at Ramadan and do a pilgrimage to Mecca and prey to the East on a little mat five times a day.

But that is it. They go on about how their religion says that if they kill one man it is as bad as killing the whole world (such compassion) and then one of them pulls out a knife and slices someone's head off.

It is a cult of people who are kept in the dark about what their religion really says, because of all the religions, Islam has the most incoherent book which is just an endless load of babble about Allah being all compassionate and all merciful and not a lot else. I have a copy in English, being an infidel.

Also, bear in mind that Muslims have no interest in other religions or world history so, although they can get along in the modern world and hold down jobs, they can't engage in any deep conversation about anything outside Islam or popular culture.

Why is anyone a Muslim? They wouldn't know themselves why they are Muslims because they are just told by their family and Imams that they are and that if they stop being one, they are dead meat.
It seems that you are one of those blind Atheists

Islam and Quran are very clear and an average Muslim can understand most of it.
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24-08-2014, 06:31 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(23-08-2014 02:19 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Muslim:

Regarding all the claims of embyology in the quran as miraculous - I have gone through this previously with live debates and easily refuted the Qurans claims - however better to go through a scholarly professional resource rather than myself repeating everything and spending lots of time:
It doesn't work like that
You must take all of them in general

Anyway you must have the choice, God will not force you to believe in him

anyway, I'll present some of those miracles in Quran and you can try to refute them.
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24-08-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
Muslim, every time I peek at one of your threads all I see is you saying that you will say something later. Tongue

When are you going to say something?

I'll pop back in in a day or two and see if you have gotten around to it...

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24-08-2014, 07:32 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2014 09:03 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 06:12 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 08:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ooooh I enjoy perusing the hadith;

From the Hadith:

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.

Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.

Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.

Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.

Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.

Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.

Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.

Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.

Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.

Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

looks like some heavy stuff Rolleyes
What are your objections on these Hadith?
Please open a new thread for each single subject?
I don't debate all things at once!

What are your objections on these Hadith?

-The ones I just posted? Do I really need to point out what is wrong with them? Of course I do, you are muslim and think it is fine to molest and rape children Facepalm

"Please open a new thread for each single subject?"

-No, we arent dedicating 137 new threads to pander to your needs.

"I don't debate all things at once!"

-You haven't debated anything yet, made a solid posit or quantified your statement that islam is the one true religion, Muhammad (hopefully totally made up person because if he was real, he was a sick, twisted, angry, pedophile who forced those around him to kneel to his desires) is the one true prophet and Allah is a real god.

-Anytime you want to engage..

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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24-08-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 06:31 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 02:19 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Muslim:

Regarding all the claims of embyology in the quran as miraculous - I have gone through this previously with live debates and easily refuted the Qurans claims - however better to go through a scholarly professional resource rather than myself repeating everything and spending lots of time:
It doesn't work like that
You must take all of them in general

Anyway you must have the choice, God will not force you to believe in him

anyway, I'll present some of those miracles in Quran and you can try to refute them.

No, you need to prove them. That's the way it's done. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 06:27 AM)Muslim Wrote:  It seems that you are one of those blind Atheists

Islam and Quran are very clear and an average Muslim can understand most of it.

The average Muslim hasn't even read it. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
The below post by Muslim points to a really, really interesting thing!

I think that our own belief system always appears as completely true and consistent to us.

Because how could it do otherwise? My belief system is my premise for looking at the world, so very clearly if I look at my premise for looking at the world from that premise, it will look perfectly logical and consistent!

So because it looks perfect from that premise, I'll carry on believing it is perfect, without realising that the reason it appears to me as perfect is only because I already thought that it was perfect. I think I'm seeing truth (and so perhaps get a bit arrogant about it) - but actually, I'm in an echo chamber of my own making.

Obviously this applies to religious belief systems (fundamentalists of most religions believe their religion is the only "true" religion).

However it applies to all belief systems, even rational worldivew belief systems (Caveat emptor)

Phil



(19-08-2014 09:55 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Intro threads are supposed to be nice, so I had to pull this out of there for everyone to discuss.

(19-08-2014 05:23 AM)Muslim Wrote:  I'm a Muslim because Islam is the only valid and true religion

Quran doesn't have a single error or contradiction (you can create a separate thread for your claims regarding this)

There is no need to prove each statement in Quran; as we have the same copy of Quran, that was written right after the prophet time


I will start with Facepalm
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24-08-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 06:31 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 02:19 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Muslim:

Regarding all the claims of embyology in the quran as miraculous - I have gone through this previously with live debates and easily refuted the Qurans claims - however better to go through a scholarly professional resource rather than myself repeating everything and spending lots of time:
It doesn't work like that
You must take all of them in general

Anyway you must have the choice, God will not force you to believe in him

anyway, I'll present some of those miracles in Quran and you can try to refute them.

Muslim - not only did God not give me a choice - If He existed he made the world look like an atheist would expect.
Are you familiar with Islamic apophatic theology ?
Are you familiar with Sufism or the esoteric parts of Islam ?
I dont have a choice to believe in God because the universe does not testify or show any evidence of a creator. So no, God did not give me a choice.

If you want we can go through Kalam cosmological arguments, design arguments etc etc - and its not like I have not been an orthodox believer !
I have been an insider and preached theism for over 7 years !
My story is not far off from Seth Andrews (creator of this blog+Podcast)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-08-2014, 11:20 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 07:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 06:31 AM)Muslim Wrote:  It doesn't work like that
You must take all of them in general

Anyway you must have the choice, God will not force you to believe in him

anyway, I'll present some of those miracles in Quran and you can try to refute them.

No, you need to prove them. That's the way it's done . Drinking Beverage

What ?
All I need to do is refute one miracle and the Quran's credibility collapses.
The Embryology "miracles" in the Quran are quite easy to refute. I sent you a scholarly article going through the entire evidence in massive detail and it shows that the embryology claims in the QUran are false. You cannot play around with the arabic considering it is written by arabic speakers and you can check various translations.
Quote:You must take all of them in general
Absolutely not !
Why ? If one alleged miracle is false then those SUrahs containing the alleged miracles are not valid. Each Surah or section can stand by itself.
You do the same for the Bible or any other work.

In any case - lets say for the benefit of doubt that each "miracle" has a low evidence probability of being genuine. Adding up lots of weak evidence doesn't make strong evidence.

If 5 pieces of evidence have 20% probability of being true that does not make 100% probability for the truth of all 5 pieces of evidence combined.

Lets say the embryology in the Quran has 0% validity so the SUrahs containing those passages are invalid.

Quote:....No, you need to prove them. That's the way it's done
I need to prove what ?
How can I prove the embyology miracles claims in the Quran are true when they are not ?
The burden of proof is on the one presenting the Miracle claim !!!
Your claiming the miracles, all I can do is show they are not miracles OR agree there is evidence for a miracle. How can I prove something not true ?
All I am claiming is there is no evidence for your Quran miracle claims.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-08-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: Muslim-Why are you a Muslim?
(24-08-2014 10:49 AM)phil.a Wrote:  The below post by Muslim points to a really, really interesting thing!

I think that our own belief system always appears as completely true and consistent to us.

Because how could it do otherwise? My belief system is my premise for looking at the world, so very clearly if I look at my premise for looking at the world from that premise, it will look perfectly logical and consistent!

So because it looks perfect from that premise, I'll carry on believing it is perfect, without realising that the reason it appears to me as perfect is only because I already thought that it was perfect. I think I'm seeing truth (and so perhaps get a bit arrogant about it) - but actually, I'm in an echo chamber of my own making.

Obviously this applies to religious belief systems (fundamentalists of most religions believe their religion is the only "true" religion).

However it applies to all belief systems, even rational worldivew belief systems (Caveat emptor)

Phil



(19-08-2014 09:55 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Intro threads are supposed to be nice, so I had to pull this out of there for everyone to discuss.



I will start with Facepalm

Quote:I think that our own belief system always appears as completely true and consistent to us.

Because how could it do otherwise? My belief system is my premise for looking at the world, so very clearly if I look at my premise for looking at the world from that premise, it will look perfectly logical and consistent!


I disagree Phil a.
If your right then no one could ever change their mind and we know people do.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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