Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
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16-08-2016, 03:08 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 02:20 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 02:01 PM)morondog Wrote:  Which, if you are the judge, opens the door to abuse. All they have to do is characterise their victims as "zealots" and you'll rubber stamp anything they do.

You really want that? She's going through the proper channels. She's not drumming up a riot. She's bringing a case, *as any citizen has a right to do*.

A "zealot" can be described as a person who's uncompromising in pursuit of their religious ideals and beliefs. As was Al Matar in choosing to wear religiously imposed religious garb—which is out of keeping with the social norms of the Western society she's chosen to live in, and which totally hides her identity in a secure public place. Whenever we visited mosques in Islamic countries, my wife covered her head, and we both removed our shoes as a mark of common courtesy. We also had no expectations of consuming alcohol in our hotels, or in restaurants etc.

So... when Westerners visit and/or work in Islamic countries, we're more than happy to respect their religious traditions, but when Muslims visit our countries, the same respect is not shown towards our Western way of life? And we're expected to bend over backwards and to sit by and see this happening day after day?

All Western countries should follow Switzerland's lead and ban the burqa in public. And impose a $10,000 fine on anybody flouting this law, as the Swiss have recently.

Wasn't she cleared by the court of flouting any laws? I have just scanned, casually the story, maybe I am missing something.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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16-08-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
When I have travelled abroad, or lived in other countries, I have always taken care to respect the local customs. Learned about them and adapted to my hosts. It's their country, and they choose to run it a certain way, and I can either respect that or not go there.

Just like I am going to respect you if I visit your house. So there is that.

Secondly, we are living in the day and age of face recognition software and surveillance in public places. If I hang a sheet over my head and cut out eye slits and attempt to walk around, I will run into trouble with the law. Because I am evading recognition.

Thirdly, having nothing of your person show but eyes makes you a non person. You are but a moving object, and that is why it was designed that way. Women have been told it is for their protection because men might not be able to resist raping anyone with a face. But it perpetuates the treatment of women as chattel.

Fourthly, we have evolved to take many of our clues from faces. We can see mood and intent and many subconscious things. Not being able to look at faces deprives us of a normal human function.

Burkas have no place in non-Islamic societies. There is no advantage to anyone, and many disadvantages.

I think they should be illegal.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-08-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
@SYZ and Dom

While I do agree that any garbs that hides the face should be banned by law (except for special holidays like Halloween for example), this isn't really pertinent to this case. In Chicago, it’s perfectly legal to dress like so. The women in question was arrested without any reason and under false pretence. This isn't in debate right now. A judge did recognise they had no reason to arrest her. The only question that remains is how the police officers who made the arrest should be treated.

I think they acted out of fear. At the time of the arrest, there was a high alert for terrorist attack based mostly out of rumors and conjectures more than careful police investigation, which could have triggered a climate of hysterical fear of anything rhyming with «Muslim Fundamentalist». Being a Muslim Fundamentalist isn't crime, but it paints you as a target for any law enforcement officer in the same way that if a news cast announce a high probability of gang violence, you better not be a young black men looking like 50¢ and crossing a police car. When they saw her, they probably reacted on an impulse. They were told, after all, that the level of alert for terrorist action was high. It could blow up anywhere at any moment and there you see the stereotypical villain of your story walking down the street. How could they not imagine a threat were there was none. As for accusation of treating her unfairly just look at some comments in this thread. Those police officers, who aren't bad people or even bad police officers, probably think the same kind of thing. They didn't like the fact she was a Muslim Fundamentalist for humanist reason like her vision of civil liberties, women's rights and her close mindedness, but also for bigoted reasons like the fear of her non-conformist habits or her «guilt by association» with violent movements. During the arrest all those elements could have melted together to create a sense of hostility that they probably didn't even knew they were projecting (or probably didn't wanted to), but that was very easy to see and to feel from the women perspective. You can't drum up the fear of something or someone and expect police officers to act rationally and professionally. Ironically, drumming up the fear of terrorism is counterproductive to fighting terrorism more often than not. As it was proven in the past, most terrorists committing attacks on the US soil don't look like your typical niqab/burka wearing women or long bearded men in robes. They look like normal people. That's why they are successful after all. To me the real responsible for this incident is the poor handling and poor tactics of counter terrorism in America as well as a potential over use of strength by police officers in the US in general.

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16-08-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 04:09 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @SYZ and Dom

While I do agree that any garbs that hides the face should be banned by law (except for special holidays like Halloween for example), this isn't really pertinent to this case. In Chicago, it’s perfectly legal to dress like so. The women in question was arrested without any reason and under false pretence. This isn't in debate right now. A judge did recognise they had no reason to arrest her. The only question that remains is how the police officers who made the arrest should be treated.

I think they acted out of fear. At the time of the arrest, there was a high alert for terrorist attack based mostly out of rumors and conjectures more than careful police investigation, which could have triggered a climate of hysterical fear of anything rhyming with «Muslim Fundamentalist». Being a Muslim Fundamentalist isn't crime, but it paints you as a target for any law enforcement officer in the same way that if a news cast announce a high probability of gang violence, you better not be a young black men looking like 50¢ and crossing a police car. When they saw her, they probably reacted on an impulse. They were told, after all, that the level of alert for terrorist action was high. It could blow up anywhere at any moment and there you see the stereotypical villain of your story walking down the street. How could they not imagine a threat were there was none. As for accusation of treating her unfairly just look at some comments in this thread. Those police officers, who aren't bad people or even bad police officers, probably think the same kind of thing. They didn't like the fact she was a Muslim Fundamentalist for humanist reason like her vision of civil liberties, women's rights and her close mindedness, but also for bigoted reasons like the fear of her non-conformist habits or her «guilt by association» with violent movements. During the arrest all those elements could have melted together to create a sense of hostility that they probably didn't even knew they were projecting (or probably didn't wanted to), but that was very easy to see and to feel from the women perspective. You can't drum up the fear of something or someone and expect police officers to act rationally and professionally. Ironically, drumming up the fear of terrorism is counterproductive to fighting terrorism more often than not. As it was proven in the past, most terrorists committing attacks on the US soil don't look like your typical niqab/burka wearing women or long bearded men in robes. They look like normal people. That's why they are successful after all. To me the real responsible for this incident is the poor handling and poor tactics of counter terrorism in America as well as a potential over use of strength by police officers in the US in general.

Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-08-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 04:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

The cops around here have the right to demand to see my face. Depending on the county they may also have the right to fiddle my fellas.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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16-08-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 04:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 04:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

The cops around here have the right to demand to see my face. Depending on the county they may also have the right to fiddle my fellas.

Could they use a matron to provide a happy ending? They owe you that, at least, for squeezing the goods.
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16-08-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 04:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 04:09 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @SYZ and Dom

While I do agree that any garbs that hides the face should be banned by law (except for special holidays like Halloween for example), this isn't really pertinent to this case. In Chicago, it’s perfectly legal to dress like so. The women in question was arrested without any reason and under false pretence. This isn't in debate right now. A judge did recognise they had no reason to arrest her. The only question that remains is how the police officers who made the arrest should be treated.

I think they acted out of fear. At the time of the arrest, there was a high alert for terrorist attack based mostly out of rumors and conjectures more than careful police investigation, which could have triggered a climate of hysterical fear of anything rhyming with «Muslim Fundamentalist». Being a Muslim Fundamentalist isn't crime, but it paints you as a target for any law enforcement officer in the same way that if a news cast announce a high probability of gang violence, you better not be a young black men looking like 50¢ and crossing a police car. When they saw her, they probably reacted on an impulse. They were told, after all, that the level of alert for terrorist action was high. It could blow up anywhere at any moment and there you see the stereotypical villain of your story walking down the street. How could they not imagine a threat were there was none. As for accusation of treating her unfairly just look at some comments in this thread. Those police officers, who aren't bad people or even bad police officers, probably think the same kind of thing. They didn't like the fact she was a Muslim Fundamentalist for humanist reason like her vision of civil liberties, women's rights and her close mindedness, but also for bigoted reasons like the fear of her non-conformist habits or her «guilt by association» with violent movements. During the arrest all those elements could have melted together to create a sense of hostility that they probably didn't even knew they were projecting (or probably didn't wanted to), but that was very easy to see and to feel from the women perspective. You can't drum up the fear of something or someone and expect police officers to act rationally and professionally. Ironically, drumming up the fear of terrorism is counterproductive to fighting terrorism more often than not. As it was proven in the past, most terrorists committing attacks on the US soil don't look like your typical niqab/burka wearing women or long bearded men in robes. They look like normal people. That's why they are successful after all. To me the real responsible for this incident is the poor handling and poor tactics of counter terrorism in America as well as a potential over use of strength by police officers in the US in general.

Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

Does this rule out walking around town dressed as bigfoot on any random day?

Painting yourself gold and pretending to be a human statue?

Are fake beards and and casts set over unbroken legs illegal?

Can I not randomly wear a costume in public for mine own amusement?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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16-08-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 06:32 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 04:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

Does this rule out walking around town dressed as bigfoot on any random day?

Painting yourself gold and pretending to be a human statue?

Are fake beards and and casts set over unbroken legs illegal?

Can I not randomly wear a costume in public for mine own amusement?

It's harder to have such norms in a large multicultural environment. For instance celebrities like to disguise themselves some of the time to avoid paparazzi.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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16-08-2016, 06:54 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 06:32 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 04:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, while there is no law against it (none was ever needed) I can promise you that if I wore a burka to my little town, people would likely cross to the other side of the street trying to avoid me, and sooner or later the law would show up asking for my ID. And they would want to see my face to confirm that I match my picture.

Does this rule out walking around town dressed as bigfoot on any random day?

Painting yourself gold and pretending to be a human statue?

Are fake beards and and casts set over unbroken legs illegal?

Can I not randomly wear a costume in public for mine own amusement?

The point is "no face". If there is no visible face, in a small US town the cops will show to ask for ID and ask to see the face.

It's all about recognition, no one cares about your legs.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-08-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Muslim Woman Sues Chicago Police
(16-08-2016 06:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-08-2016 06:32 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  Does this rule out walking around town dressed as bigfoot on any random day?

Painting yourself gold and pretending to be a human statue?

Are fake beards and and casts set over unbroken legs illegal?

Can I not randomly wear a costume in public for mine own amusement?

The point is "no face". If there is no visible face, in a small US town the cops will show to ask for ID and ask to see the face.

It's all about recognition, no one cares about your legs.

I felt sorry for a man who had no arms, until I met a man who had no face.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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