Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 12:54 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, burkas are certainly traditional. And everyone knows that some muslim women wear burkas. So it shouldn't raise alarm.

We also know that many of them have no fucking choice, and that such attire is imposed upon them by Islam and those with the power and authority granted and enforced by that religion.
I don't know that.

I'm arguing for allowing them to have a choice. I am arguing against govt law banning them from wearing burka if they want to wear it.

(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Who knows why a woman is wearing a burka? Has she choosen to do it, was she forced? Who knows?

Right, so you entirely ignored the point I raised earlier about how religiously imposed norms might not meet the requirements of informed consent?
Not ignoring, but disregarding because it's not a valid point. It's not something I hold as true.

(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Perhaps they are cold or ugly, who knows. If it scares you, then keep your distance.

If it's cold, that one thing. I live in the snow belt of the Great Lakes in the north eastern United States. Winters here get cold. But if you enter a place of business, you start to remove your scarf or balaclava.
Do they have to remove their scarf. Would you create a law to force them to do so?


(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Again, the distinction between consent and informed consent. A 12 year old can agree to have sex with an adult, but most laws agree that a 12 year old doesn't have the experience to grant informed consent.
We are talking about adults here. Adults making their own choices as to what clothes they are wearing. Nothing to do with a 12 year old having sex. Where did that come from?

(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Someone raised in a fundamentalist religion, it can be argued, likewise can also lack the experience to give informed consent.
'tis beside the point. An adult can choose to wear religious clothes if they want? What business is it of yours to stop them? Are you trying to save them from themselves? Laughat

(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  In this case, the same religion imposing the burqas, also allows for the marriage of pre-teen girls to adult males. Informed female consent is not part of Sharia Law.
What?
Are we talking about burkas or are we having an axe to grind about anything muslim?


(11-07-2016 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, you've ignored the distinction of consent versus informed consent,
It's not my place to make the distinction. It's not my place to save adults from wearing the "wrong" clothes item. Facepalm
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11-07-2016, 12:55 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 12:59 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  Informed consent of an adult is completely different from informed consent of a child. You are claiming that *adults* must be treated as children, pretty much explicitly. I don't see how you can justify that.


Not that they be treated like children in every regard... Facepalm


No freedoms are absolute, and we have all kinds of specific exceptions for specific reasons and purposes. You cannot yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded movie theater, stuff like that.


So if you can make an argument in favor of the public good, that the burqa is a traditional tool of religiously imposed sexual inequality, and if enough people agree that their society is better off without allowing the acceptable perpetuation of such a cultural practice with roots in female control and subjection? Then have at it. Will some women still claim to prefer it? I'm sure they would. I'm sure there were not an inconsequential number of slaves in the southern United States who feared abolition and would have preferred the comfort of the world they had known since they were born to the unknowns of freedom; but that's not a good enough reason to prevent ending slavery. Would a person born into slavery, professing their preference to slavery over freedom, be espousing informed consent to be a slave?


I have the freedom to not wear my safety belt in the car (especially in my own garage), but if I'm caught in public, there can be consequences. Women still have the freedom to wear the burqa (especially in their own homes), but if they're caught in public, there can be consequences.

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11-07-2016, 01:03 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have the freedom to not wear my safety belt in the car (especially in my own garage), but if I'm caught in public, there can be consequences. Women still have the freedom to wear the burqa (especially in their own homes), but if they're caught in public, there can be consequences.

So... a seatbelt has a measureable impact on my own safety - there are in fact stats to back it up. The decision to make not wearing a seatbelt illegal is informed by these stats, and it's judged better to infringe the rights of the non-seat-belt-wearing minority because of the benefits that wearing a seatbelt brings.

Where are the similar stats concerning the wearing of burqas in public?

And now you want these women to be treated as children in one regard where you as a court of one person have decided that their explicitly given consent "doesn't count" because they were indoctrinated as children - this is *all* Muslim women by the way, regardless of intelligence or upbringing. What other things could we apply this legal principle to and do you not think that it is a dangerous tool?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 01:16 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 01:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:53 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Seriously, are you guys not reading anything I write about consent versus informed consent, or are you choosing to ignore it?

I'm reading it, I can't understand where you're coming from though.

The point being is that it is a tool of sexual inequality, used by the men in charge to dehumanize women. Given it's purpose, the repression of women in culture, can a woman raised in such a culture have an informed opinion on the matter of a religiously mandated garb? One used as a means to constrain the very person who wears it?

Given the context of that garment's use and the role it still currently plays in many other countries, I can see how the opinion of women raised in such cultures is questionable (specifically in regard to the burqa). But even then, this is a secondary concern, and a means of dismissing objections from those who don't know any better. Some might, but if there still exists a legitimate public good argument, then it just sucks to be them; they're not allowed to pretend to be Pac-Man ghosts.


Take someone raised as a slave. Whenever they made mistakes, they got beaten. It was a cultural norm, it's just the way things had been done, and would continue to be done. Now that person gets their freedom and emigrates to another country, and they have a kid. When that kid makes a mistake, their parent beats them. Now the primary concern here is the public good, we don't want to condone the cultural practice of using assault as a means of behavior correction. The consent of such individuals, either the parents or the children who see it as a cultural norm and protest against the law in favor of beatings, can be dismissed as uninformed; but that's still a secondary concern to the public good argument.

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11-07-2016, 01:25 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 01:40 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have the freedom to not wear my safety belt in the car (especially in my own garage), but if I'm caught in public, there can be consequences. Women still have the freedom to wear the burqa (especially in their own homes), but if they're caught in public, there can be consequences.
So... a seatbelt has a measureable impact on my own safety - there are in fact stats to back it up. The decision to make not wearing a seatbelt illegal is informed by these stats, and it's judged better to infringe the rights of the non-seat-belt-wearing minority because of the benefits that wearing a seatbelt brings.

Precisely, public good can trump personal freedom at times.


(11-07-2016 01:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  Where are the similar stats concerning the wearing of burqas in public?

That is where things get trickier. You'd have to go looking into social psychology, and I cannot imagine that in such countries that impose the burqa this way, that they're terrible keen on allowing scientific investigation into the societal effects of their supposedly Allah imposed cultural practices. People have been killed for less.

But if you look at the types of countries that impose the mandatory usage of the burqa, and take a look at the severe level of inequality in those places? Does it surprise you that enough people in Switzerland would say "we want to have nothing to do with that, or the tools used to maintain it"?


(11-07-2016 01:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  And now you want these women to be treated as children in one regard where you as a court of one person have decided that their explicitly given consent "doesn't count" because they were indoctrinated as children - this is *all* Muslim women by the way, regardless of intelligence or upbringing. What other things could we apply this legal principle to and do you not think that it is a dangerous tool?


Not a court of one. Unless Switzerland is a monarchy, in which case, that's between the king/queen and their people.

If there is a sufficiently strong enough public good argument to be made, brushing aside the objections of some of the affected as being uninformed (and justifiably so in some cases, if not all) is just the icing on the cake. Remove the icing, the cake is still there.

This is why I think the argument is much stronger against the burqa, and falls apart against the hijab. The hijab isn't anywhere near as dehumanizing as the burqa, so because of that and it's more widespread usage in less fundamentalist countries with a greater degree of female equality, the public good arguments against it don't carry the same weight; so much so that I think it's insufficient against the hijab. The hijab fits into the same category as a turban, kippah, or crucifixion necklace; in that's it's a relatively inoffensive piece of religious or cultural garb that doesn't pose much of a concern in regards to the public good.

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11-07-2016, 01:39 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Sorry EK. I can see the public good argument, but only if there's stats to back it up, and explicit stats concerning how this really does impact public safety, not just hand-waving about how Switzerland is a nicer place than Saudi Arabia. Why *don't* we just ban Islam as a religion in that case? After all the root of the problem isn't actually the garment, it's the religion, am I right?

I can't see the informed consent argument at all, I think it's invalid. There's no reason to regard Muslim women as less able to make decisions regarding their dress than others. For sure, it may be a tool of sexual repression as you claim, but that's *you*. I happen to more or less agree with you, but again, if *they* choose to wear it I can't see why our opinion should matter.

If I choose to wear a straight-jacket in public, despite that this is a piece of clothing that can be used to physically restrain me against my will, who are you to deny me my right to wear it, since it is my choice?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Should we also allow 12 year old children to consent to sex with adults?

Speaking of loose analogies ...
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11-07-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
TL;DR

The opinions of those raised in burqa mandatory cultures might be suspect in regards to the efficacy of the burqa, especially by the cultural standards of western Europe.

But that takes a back seat to issues over the public good.

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11-07-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  Where are the burqa-clad gangs terrorising your neighbourhood? If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree. If it's a tool of sexual repression and it's really the men-folks choice to force them to wear it, why does the law punish the *women* with a fine? After all they've apparently got the decision making abilities of 12 year olds.

"If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree."

If the 12 year old says they want to have sex with an adult of their own free choice, who are you to disagree?

Are you saying that an adult woman has the same informed choice as a 12-year-old child?

Really?
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11-07-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Should we also allow 12 year old children to consent to sex with adults?

Speaking of loose analogies ...

It was making the point of highlighting the difference between consent and informed consent. Age is currently one acceptable means of drawing a line in the sand between the two. Perhaps that's not the only metric that can be used?

Plus, it was still a better take than your vacuous 'what if they're cold?' angle.

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