Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 01:52 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  TL;DR

The opinions of those raised in burqa mandatory cultures might be suspect in regards to the efficacy of the burqa, especially by the cultural standards of western Europe.

But that takes a back seat to issues over the public good.

If the burqa is such a dangerous thing to the public good that it has to be outlawed then it should be easily demonstrable. Once again. Where are the gangs of burqa clad lunatics infesting the cantons of Switzerland? Perhaps they actually *are* the skiers? It would be a cunning plan indeed... to infiltrate Switzerland under the watchful noses of the Swiss electorate. Fortunately the Swiss are even more cunning, and have outlawed the wearing of the green burqa.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I have the freedom to not wear my safety belt in the car (especially in my own garage), but if I'm caught in public, there can be consequences. Women still have the freedom to wear the burqa (especially in their own homes), but if they're caught in public, there can be consequences.

A Hobson's Choice is not freedom. The point of a burqa, in Islam, is public modesty.

Is it culturally enforced sometimes? Sure. Is it voluntary at times? Just as surely. But by denying them the very reason for which some adult women do choose to wear it legally, you would be stripping some (and I don't know how many) Muslim women of that choice.

If you wish to do so on the basis that society is threatened by this custom, can you provide numbers to justify this denial of choice? How many crimes in Switzerland were committed using burqas as subterfuge? You can pick the timeframe.

Buts let's see some facts rather than hypothetical fears in support of your argument.
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11-07-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:25 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But if you look at the types of countries that impose the mandatory usage of the burqa, and take a look at the severe level of inequality in those places?

Who here is arguing that the burqa should be mandatory in Switzerland? Be specific.

You can't, because no one is. This is a strawman argument.
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11-07-2016, 02:03 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 02:08 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry EK. I can see the public good argument, but only if there's stats to back it up, and explicit stats concerning how this really does impact public safety, not just hand-waving about how Switzerland is a nicer place than Saudi Arabia. Why *don't* we just ban Islam as a religion in that case? After all the root of the problem isn't actually the garment, it's the religion, am I right?

How often does public policy bow to scientific rigor? Not as often as either of us would like, I'm sure.

I'd love to have the raw numbers to back it up, but seeing as how that's almost assuredly not going to happen any time soon (who in their right mind would risk their lives to be scientifically critical of the cultural norms in such locations, when people have been killed for less?), we're left working without it.

The full burqa covers the body and face, entirely hiding the person underneath. It's dehumanizing, because people in burqas don't look like people, and they certainly look different for the people who have rights and power (the men). Going off that alone, I think they can make an argument to get rid of it. It might have some cultural significance, but if that's not worth allowing the promulgation and normalcy of the use of such attire, then so be it.

While they're at it, they should ban female genital mutilation too.


(11-07-2016 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  I can't see the informed consent argument at all, I think it's invalid. There's no reason to regard Muslim women as less able to make decisions regarding their dress than others. For sure, it may be a tool of sexual repression as you claim, but that's *you*. I happen to more or less agree with you, but again, if *they* choose to wear it I can't see why our opinion should matter.

It's about cultural norms. They're taking a preemptive strike so that the burqa, even if some want to use if voluntarily, won't become a culturally acceptable norm; and with it, all of the dehumanizing and anti-woman cultural baggage it carries with it.

We use laws to limit freedoms and enforce or change cultural norms, this is nothing new.


(11-07-2016 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  If I choose to wear a straight-jacket in public, despite that this is a piece of clothing that can be used to physically restrain me against my will, who are you to deny me my right to wear it, since it is my choice?

We both know that a straight jacket doesn't carry the same cultural baggage and implications as a burqa, and that if it did, we would be having a different conversation right now.

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11-07-2016, 02:09 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 10:11 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:51 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 01:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Speaking of loose analogies ...

It was making the point of highlighting the difference between consent and informed consent. Age is currently one acceptable means of drawing a line in the sand between the two. Perhaps that's not the only metric that can be used?

Plus, it was still a better take than your vacuous 'what if they're cold?' angle.

Actually, "informed consent" being based on age renders nugatory your emphasis on gender as the metric.

And if you think coldness as a reason for covering one's face is vacuous, just wait 'til you address the sexism inherent in your idea of women being as incapable of rendering informed consent as a preteen. Do you think there are no female apostates of Islam? Are they so dumb they cannot question their upbringing the same as I did?

I completely disagree with your unquestioned premise. Some people are indeed programmatic and will not question their upbringing, sure. But denying those who do question it and still decide to accept it the ability to express their acceptance simply because of hypothetical fears that you have not supported with data is unconvincing.
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11-07-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'd love to have the raw numbers to back it up, but seeing as how that's almost assuredly not going to happen any time soon (who in their right mind would risk their lives to be scientifically critical of the cultural norms in such locations, when people have been killed for less?), we're left working without it.
You are misunderstanding me. I mean the public good argument must be backed up by stats *in Switzerland* since that is the place where the law is being made. The claim is that the law increases public safety, so where is the *threat* to public safety that the law addresses?

Quote:The full burqa covers the body and face, entirely hiding the person underneath. It's dehumanizing, because people in burqas don't look like people, and they certainly look different for the people who have rights and power (the men). Going off that alone, I think they can make an argument to get rid of it. It might have some cultural significance, but if that's not worth allowing the promulgation and normalcy of the use of such attire, then so be it.
Agreed, but if it's someone's choice to wear it that's fine. In America there are people who run around wearing actual dog-collars as part of the SM community. Is there anything more explicitly dehumanising than that? But it's allowed, because it's their choice.

Quote:While they're at it, they should ban female genital mutilation too.
Female genital mutilation is typically involuntary. It involves violation of the woman's person. I absolutely think that it should be illegal everywhere.

Quote:It's about cultural norms. They're taking a preemptive strike so that the burqa, even if some want to use if voluntarily, won't become a culturally acceptable norm; and with it, all of the dehumanizing and anti-woman cultural baggage it carries with it.
I think enforcing cultural norms translates into the message "you are not welcome". If the Swiss cultural norms are so much better than the alternative why do they have to be *enforced*? Since in Switzerland the woman is not forced to wear her burqa, is that not enough? Instead she must be forced again. I can well see how if I was a Muslim woman I'd feel like either way I'd got a raw deal, in Saudi Arabia or Switzerland. No one wants to let them decide, it's all about how they're not capable of doing so themselves.

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(11-07-2016 01:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  If I choose to wear a straight-jacket in public, despite that this is a piece of clothing that can be used to physically restrain me against my will, who are you to deny me my right to wear it, since it is my choice?

We both know that a straight jacket doesn't carry the same cultural baggage and implications as a burqa, and that if it did, we would be having a different conversation right now.

Yeah, a straight jacket doesn't irrationally scare *other* people. Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 02:17 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:59 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  A Hobson's Choice is not freedom. The point of a burqa, in Islam, is public modesty.

If that's the case, then smoking in your home but not in a restaurant is the same choice. Smokers lost that argument in most places.

So some claim it's about modesty (Evangelicals say the same thing about abstinence only education), and in practice, it's a tool of inequality and oppression. It looks like Switzerland doens't want that tool becoming a cultural norm, and took steps to preempt that.


(11-07-2016 01:59 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Is it culturally enforced sometimes? Sure. Is it voluntary at times? Just as surely. But by denying them the very reason for which some adult women do choose to wear it legally, you would be stripping some (and I don't know how many) Muslim women of that choice.

If Switzerland thinks that the public good is more important than their choice? If removing the burqa and it's disgusting cultural baggage from the public sphere is worth it? That's their choice too.


(11-07-2016 01:59 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you wish to do so on the basis that society is threatened by this custom, can you provide numbers to justify this denial of choice? How many crimes in Switzerland were committed using burqas as subterfuge? You can pick the timeframe.

Buts let's see some facts rather than hypothetical fears in support of your argument.


So fucking literal...

I don't think anybody is at all that worried about a potential rash of burqa clad bank robberies in Switzerland any time soon. That is a far cry from recognizing the anti-woman cultural baggage inextricably tied to the burqa, and wanting to have no part in it. Much like how Germany has banned the use of the Swastika, because they too want nothing to do with it and are trying to distance themselves culturally from it and it's associated baggage.

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11-07-2016, 02:25 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That is a far cry from recognizing the anti-woman cultural baggage inextricably tied to the burqa, and wanting to have no part in it.

Whereas denying a woman the freedom to choose her own clothing is pro-woman, because the woman in question can't possibly make an informed decision.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'd love to have the raw numbers to back it up, but seeing as how that's almost assuredly not going to happen any time soon (who in their right mind would risk their lives to be scientifically critical of the cultural norms in such locations, when people have been killed for less?), we're left working without it.
You are misunderstanding me. I mean the public good argument must be backed up by stats *in Switzerland* since that is the place where the law is being made. The claim is that the law increases public safety, so where is the *threat* to public safety that the law addresses?

No, it doesn't. Not all laws are made after the fact. Unless they have other laws dictating that they can only pass reactionary laws to things that have already happened?


(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:The full burqa covers the body and face, entirely hiding the person underneath. It's dehumanizing, because people in burqas don't look like people, and they certainly look different for the people who have rights and power (the men). Going off that alone, I think they can make an argument to get rid of it. It might have some cultural significance, but if that's not worth allowing the promulgation and normalcy of the use of such attire, then so be it.
Agreed, but if it's someone's choice to wear it that's fine. In America there are people who run around wearing actual dog-collars as part of the SM community. Is there anything more explicitly dehumanising than that? But it's allowed, because it's their choice.

Close, but not quite. The incredibly small sub-culture of Goth and S&M who do that? Not only do they not see it as dehumanizing, but their views are not mainstream or culturally normative; unlike the mandatory use of burqas in some countries. There is not a country that I know of that imposes mandatory dog collar, under pain of death and eternal damnation of they're removed. And the collar's usage in Goth and S&M culture isn't mono gendered.

In the United States, it's seen as a choice worth having.

If Switzerland has decided that the choice to wear the burqa has too much unwanted cultural baggage, that's their prerogative, and I don't have a huge issue with it. Not every society will have the same conclusions when it comes to what freedoms are worth having and preserving and in which contexts.


(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:While they're at it, they should ban female genital mutilation too.
Female genital mutilation is typically involuntary. It involves violation of the woman's person. I absolutely think that it should be illegal everywhere.

Agreed.


(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:It's about cultural norms. They're taking a preemptive strike so that the burqa, even if some want to use if voluntarily, won't become a culturally acceptable norm; and with it, all of the dehumanizing and anti-woman cultural baggage it carries with it.
I think enforcing cultural norms translates into the message "you are not welcome". If the Swiss cultural norms are so much better than the alternative why do they have to be *enforced*? Since in Switzerland the woman is not forced to wear her burqa, is that not enough? Instead she must be forced again. I can well see how if I was a Muslim woman I'd feel like either way I'd got a raw deal, in Saudi Arabia or Switzerland. No one wants to let them decide, it's all about how they're not capable of doing so themselves.


If Saudi Arabia can impose it one way, Switzerland can do so the other; both are trying to control culture with legislation. The difference being that I don't find Switzerland's cultural norms to be personally offensive. They decided that the freedom to wear the burqa, and the baggage that inexorability comes with it's social acceptance and normalcy, isn't a freedom worth having; and I don't disagree with that assessment.


(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:We both know that a straight jacket doesn't carry the same cultural baggage and implications as a burqa, and that if it did, we would be having a different conversation right now.
Yeah, a straight jacket doesn't irrationally scare *other* people. Rolleyes

Because the straight jacket isn't inexorably tied to very terrifying religions and cultures.

Even then, it not a matter of fear of the burqa itself, but rather what it represents; the religious and cultural repression of women.

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11-07-2016, 02:39 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That is a far cry from recognizing the anti-woman cultural baggage inextricably tied to the burqa, and wanting to have no part in it.

Whereas denying a woman the freedom to choose her own clothing is pro-woman, because the woman in question can't possibly make an informed decision.


Not all freedoms are absolute. Freedom of speech is not unlimited, we still have laws against hate speech, inciting violence, libel, and perjury.

If Switzerland thinks that the public good of preventing the establishment of the burqa as a cultural norm is more important than a woman's choice to their attire, that's their decision to make as a culture. Yeah, that sucks for the few that would voluntarily choose to wear it. Maybe in a decade or two they could repeal it once they have a well integrated and culturally normative Muslim immigrant population, but I can see the desire and the reasons behind nipping this one practice in the bud before it propagates and has a chance to take root. Removing it after the fact would be much harder.

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