Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  You are misunderstanding me. I mean the public good argument must be backed up by stats *in Switzerland* since that is the place where the law is being made. The claim is that the law increases public safety, so where is the *threat* to public safety that the law addresses?

No, it doesn't. Not all laws are made after the fact. Unless they have other laws dictating that they can only pass reactionary laws to things that have already happened?
Of course not, but if the justification for the law is that in increases public safety then I'd expect that the claimed can be backed up. After all, if the justification was that it increases peanut butter production you'd not just leave it at that. You'd want to know *how* people concluded that that was the case.

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(11-07-2016 02:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  Agreed, but if it's someone's choice to wear it that's fine. In America there are people who run around wearing actual dog-collars as part of the SM community. Is there anything more explicitly dehumanising than that? But it's allowed, because it's their choice.

Close, but not quite. The incredibly small sub-culture of Goth and S&M who do that? Not only do they not see it as dehumanizing, but their views are not mainstream or culturally normative; unlike the mandatory use of burqas in some countries. There is not a country that I know of that imposes mandatory dog collar, under pain of death and eternal damnation of they're removed. And the collar's usage in Goth and S&M culture isn't mono gendered.

In the United States, it's seen as a choice worth having.

If Switzerland has decided that the choice to wear the burqa has too much unwanted cultural baggage, that's their prerogative, and I don't have a huge issue with it. Not every society will have the same conclusions when it comes to what freedoms are worth having and preserving and in which contexts.
The freedom of not being controlled by government to the degree that my articles of dress are dictated to me doesn't strike you as worth preserving? The Muslim women clearly don't see the burqa as you do, as a tool of sexual repression/dehumanisation, in the same way as the Goth/SM community don't see the collar as a symbol of dehumanisation. They are likewise a cultural minority.

Quote:If Saudi Arabia can impose it one way, Switzerland can do so the other; both are trying to control culture with legislation. The difference being that I don't find Switzerland's cultural norms to be personally offensive. They decided that the freedom to wear the burqa, and the baggage that inexorability comes with it's social acceptance and normalcy, isn't a freedom worth having; and I don't disagree with that assessment.
But then the comparison of Saudi Arabia to Switzerland in the OP with regard to how they treat Muslim women seems... somewhat apt? Wouldn't you say?

Quote:Even then, it not a matter of fear of the burqa itself, but rather what it represents; the religious and cultural repression of women.

Let's ban Islam as a religion then. Make it explicit. While we're at it, let's ban Christianity and atheism too.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 02:43 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not all freedoms are absolute. Freedom of speech is not unlimited, we still have laws against hate speech, inciting violence, libel, and perjury.

All of which are things which cause significant social unrest and/or injury to others and there is evidence to back it up.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 04:02 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 04:16 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, it doesn't. Not all laws are made after the fact. Unless they have other laws dictating that they can only pass reactionary laws to things that have already happened?
Of course not, but if the justification for the law is that in increases public safety then I'd expect that the claimed can be backed up. After all, if the justification was that it increases peanut butter production you'd not just leave it at that. You'd want to know *how* people concluded that that was the case.

Unfortunately we don't have an ideal situation with access to a clean data set to prove it one way or another. Part of that is due in no small part that collecting such data from countries that do make burqas mandatory is prohibitively dangerous, which in sense, is a data set in and of itself.


(11-07-2016 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:Close, but not quite. The incredibly small sub-culture of Goth and S&M who do that? Not only do they not see it as dehumanizing, but their views are not mainstream or culturally normative; unlike the mandatory use of burqas in some countries. There is not a country that I know of that imposes mandatory dog collar, under pain of death and eternal damnation of they're removed. And the collar's usage in Goth and S&M culture isn't mono gendered.

In the United States, it's seen as a choice worth having.

If Switzerland has decided that the choice to wear the burqa has too much unwanted cultural baggage, that's their prerogative, and I don't have a huge issue with it. Not every society will have the same conclusions when it comes to what freedoms are worth having and preserving and in which contexts.
The freedom of not being controlled by government to the degree that my articles of dress are dictated to me doesn't strike you as worth preserving? The Muslim women clearly don't see the burqa as you do, as a tool of sexual repression/dehumanisation, in the same way as the Goth/SM community don't see the collar as a symbol of dehumanisation. They are likewise a cultural minority.


Even in the United States, that freedom is not unlimited, and this is Switzerland. I can't speak much to their specific culture, and how much they value it not changing over personal freedom. Here in the US, assholes can dress up like Nazis. Impersonating a police officer is a crime, food establishments can mandate the need for shirts and shoes to get service. Our freedom of attire is not guaranteed or absolute. In Germany, they can't dress as Nazis, and I understand why.

I can see and understand the ban on the burqa, even if it doesn't have the best foundation.

Living in a country that pissed away it's freedom to anger the world in the name of freedom, banning a garment seem almost quaint.


(11-07-2016 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:If Saudi Arabia can impose it one way, Switzerland can do so the other; both are trying to control culture with legislation. The difference being that I don't find Switzerland's cultural norms to be personally offensive. They decided that the freedom to wear the burqa, and the baggage that inexorability comes with it's social acceptance and normalcy, isn't a freedom worth having; and I don't disagree with that assessment.
But then the comparison of Saudi Arabia to Switzerland in the OP with regard to how they treat Muslim women seems... somewhat apt? Wouldn't you say?

Saudi Arabia is doing so in the name religious fueled sexual inequality. Switzerland is doing so to preempt the cultural baggage that comes with the burqa as it's mostly used in the world today. I find the former offensive, and the later annoying but understandable.


(11-07-2016 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:Even then, it not a matter of fear of the burqa itself, but rather what it represents; the religious and cultural repression of women.
Let's ban Islam as a religion then. Make it explicit. While we're at it, let's ban Christianity and atheism too.


They already ban child marriage, and hopefully female genital mutilation. Banning male circumcision is already a debate. The Old Testament advocates death for adultery, Switzerland doesn't allow that either.

They can't change your thoughts or your beliefs, but they can prevent people from using the burqa to hide behind. Will some people genuinely lose out on the freedom to wear it voluntarily? Sure. But how many more will no longer be able to hide their abuses behind it? Switzerland is betting it's enough to be worth it, and that if there's nothing that needs hiding, then there's not much being lost anyway.

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11-07-2016, 04:13 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 04:22 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not all freedoms are absolute. Freedom of speech is not unlimited, we still have laws against hate speech, inciting violence, libel, and perjury.

All of which are things which cause significant social unrest and/or injury to others and there is evidence to back it up.

How do we get that data on the burqa?

If you go into countries that already mandate it, you're dealing with cultures that clearly treat women as inferiors to men. Those countries are also not be keen on allowing such a wide survey or data collection, especially if it came to negative conclusions, or were in any way critical of Islamic traditions and laws. People have been killed for far less.

So getting the data is dangerously prohibitive, and would almost assuredly have to rely upon self reporting. Would Saudi Arabia allow a nation wide survey of women, where it asked them if they wanted to wear the burqa? How many, even if they didn't, would answer honestly in a society that they know would kill them for it's public removal? Might as well ask the citizens of Moscow in the middle of the Cold War how many of them were dissatisfied with the Communist Party (it's anonymous and the KGB won't track your answer back to you, for realzies!)? I imagine that in and of itself probably strikes a cord with some.

They could just allow it in Switzerland with a 'fuck it, let's see what happens' laissez faire approach, which would be very American of them (for better or for worse). But changing it after the fact will most assuredly be harder then. It's easier to maintain a cultural norm than it is to legislate it away after the fact. If the Swiss value their egalitarian society, and if they see the burqa as an obstruction to their cultural values of equality, I can very easily see them wanting to remove that particular practice.

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11-07-2016, 04:14 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 04:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They can't change your thoughts or your beliefs, but they can prevent people from using the burqa to hide behind. Will some people genuinely lose out on the freedom to wear it voluntarily? Sure. But how many more will no longer be able to hide their abuses behind it? Switzerland is betting it's enough to be worth it, and that if there's nothing that needs hiding, then there's not much being lost anyway.

It seems you're not getting my point. You've effectively criminalised this burqa based on thought-crime. How far are you willing to go down that road?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 04:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 04:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They can't change your thoughts or your beliefs, but they can prevent people from using the burqa to hide behind. Will some people genuinely lose out on the freedom to wear it voluntarily? Sure. But how many more will no longer be able to hide their abuses behind it? Switzerland is betting it's enough to be worth it, and that if there's nothing that needs hiding, then there's not much being lost anyway.

It seems you're not getting my point. You've effectively criminalised this burqa based on thought-crime. How far are you willing to go down that road?


How much more has Germany banned the Swastika? How much more freedom do US citizen have because it's Neo-Nazis can use authentic WWII costumes?


If the citizens of Switzerland see the burqa, and how it is used in the vast amount of countries that mandate it, as something that they want to prohibit? That's their prerogative. Just like it's Saudi Arabia's prerogative to do otherwise, hide their women in cloth bags, and lie to them about how it's for modesty and the will of their god.

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11-07-2016, 04:44 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 02:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And since we're talking Switzerland, they may be a bit hypocritical.

[Image: madonna-says-goodbye-2014-ski-switzerland.jpg]

Except that Madonna is attempting to protect her face against the sub-zero temperature, and not hide her identity for nefarious purposes. Totally different thing.

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11-07-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 04:44 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 02:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And since we're talking Switzerland, they may be a bit hypocritical.

[Image: madonna-says-goodbye-2014-ski-switzerland.jpg]

Except that Madonna is attempting to protect her face against the sub-zero temperature, and not hide her identity for nefarious purposes. Totally different thing.

And Muslims, *all Muslims*, are hiding their identity for nefarious purposes. We know this because reasons.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 05:32 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 02:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 02:19 PM)Dom Wrote:  None of that helps the fact that I have to now deal with unidentifiable people running around in masks and wide coats.

You can't really be so dense that you do not see that this causes real and justified fear.

Like I said, let's just all wear masks and wide coats. Don't tell me that would not be disconcerting.

I understand your issues. But I don't think that justifies a law against such things.
Laws against knives and guns, sure.
But laws against burqas, or masks or hoodies? Nah, just keep your distance from people that seem suspect.

Just keep your distance from people with knives or guns. Drinking Beverage

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11-07-2016, 05:37 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:01 AM)morondog Wrote:  EK, didja see my post on page 8 (bottom of the page)?

At what point, according to you, do we treat Muslim females as adults who can make their own decisions?

When they are not under the control or authority of Muslim males. Drinking Beverage

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