Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 06:55 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 05:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 04:44 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Except that Madonna is attempting to protect her face against the sub-zero temperature, and not hide her identity for nefarious purposes. Totally different thing.

And Muslims, *all Muslims*, are hiding their identity for nefarious purposes. We know this because reasons.


I didn't say "all" Muslims; those are your words.

Of course I acknowledge your assertion that not all Muslims are potential criminals, but like a lot of other laws, we have to protect society from the few bad apples—by drafting seemingly overbearing legislation. I was commenting on the absurd conflation of a woman in skiing gear with males dressed as females in burkas.

And if you want some evidence for my earlier claims about crimes of violence committed by men wearing burkas who aren't detected by conventional security means, check out this blog by US political commentator Daniel Pipes:

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/...ty-threats

Are you happy to accept Muslims wearing the burka? Are you comfortable seeing a little baby dressed in a burka... in New fucking York?


[Image: 6a00d8341c60bf53ef0105357a8684970b-800wi...161239.jpg]
A Muslim cleric has declared a fatwa that all "female babies to
be fully covered by wearing the face veil." — Al Arabiya News, February 3.

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11-07-2016, 07:27 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 06:12 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 05:42 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Is it worth mentioning that the law came into power by a referendum in which 65% voted in favor of the ban?

It's worth to mention it if someone contest the legitimacy of a law, but if one question its wisdom, it's fallacious.

Agreed, but what are we discussing here, legitimacy or wisdom of this law?

(11-07-2016 06:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 05:42 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Is it worth mentioning that the law came into power by a referendum in which 65% voted in favor of the ban?

I'm not sure. If a law is oppressive of a minority yet 65% vote for it, is it still an OK law?

No, but first you have to demonstrate that laws that ban certain pieces of garment are in fact oppression to even begin that argument in this case.

By your logic laws that forbid public nudity that exist in most countries in the world must also be considered as oppression since they force people to wear clothes when they might not want to. Yet, I doubt that you would invest this much time into arguing against them.

Personal freedoms always have limitations and those limitations are not oppression.

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11-07-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 06:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:Or shall we rather assert ourselves as non-Muslims that they should be under *our* control? They shall wear the dress that *we* allow them to?

Again, public safety outweighs this. Religious freedom is not absolute.

And yet there's no justification offered beyond "public safety". As I've asked repeatedly, *if* this law does have an impact on public safety it should be easily demonstrable. If it doesn't then citing public safety as a reason for adopting it is fallacious IMO.

Public safety indicates that it's best that we censor the news. This is actually a hot topic in SA at the moment. The local monopoly has been ordered to only show positive news stories despite widespread public unrest. Why shouldn't they show negative news? Public safety. No justification beyond that. And indeed, I expect that if you only show people positive news stories they probably *are* in fact, that much less likely to riot. Maybe press freedom also should not be absolute?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 09:41 AM by morondog.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 06:55 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 05:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  And Muslims, *all Muslims*, are hiding their identity for nefarious purposes. We know this because reasons.


I didn't say "all" Muslims; those are your words.

Of course I acknowledge your assertion that not all Muslims are potential criminals, but like a lot of other laws, we have to protect society from the few bad apples—by drafting seemingly overbearing legislation. I was commenting on the absurd conflation of a woman in skiing gear with males dressed as females in burkas.
Um. We were discussing (as far as I was aware) *females* dressed as females in burkas, and the pic was cited as an example of Swiss people being perfectly OK with public face coverings *provided* they're not religious.

Since some Americans are bad shall we ban all Americans from international travel? I mean there's some *seemingly* overbearing legislation which will definitely weed out the few bad apples.

Quote:And if you want some evidence for my earlier claims about crimes of violence committed by men wearing burkas who aren't detected by conventional security means, check out this blog by US political commentator Daniel Pipes:

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/...ty-threats
See, that's the kind of thing that I would accept as evidence that wearing a burqa should possibly be banned. However
a. there are few incidents cited. ETA: By this I mean, the list appears to be a compilation of *global* crimes involving a burqa/niqwab since time began, of course it contains a lot - at a glance, probably 500 odd entries. But relative to the global threat posed by the burqa, somewhat few. What is troubling is to see the number of times they're used in terrorist incidents.
b. I don't know that a blanket ban on wearing burqas in public is the correct way to prevent these incidents. Better security measures in general I think would be a more straightforward way to address it. Unobtrusive or indeed explicitly visible body scanners are frequently installed in banks *anyway* because even if you can see my face, that doesn't actually stop me from robbing you.
c. it's unclear to me how burqas suddenly became a problem in Switzerland that must be dealt with *right now, immediately*, other than as I previously mentioned, right wing opportunistic politics.

Quote:Are you happy to accept Muslims wearing the burka? Are you comfortable seeing a little baby dressed in a burka... in New fucking York?

Well, I'm not happy to see indoctrination on display, but I don't see how you're going to prevent it. Short of... I dunno. Banning the religion or as many bits of it as you can legally get away with without calling it religious discrimination. At the same time if a Muslim woman chooses to wear her burqa in New fucking York I don't see that as any of my business.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(08-07-2016 08:32 AM)LadyDay Wrote:  Of course, if you have a law against keeping your face covered in public areas that should go for any type of face-covering, religious or not.

My bank will not let me in with a motorcycle helmet on and they know me.

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11-07-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 06:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 06:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  Blacks?
Clarify...

You cited a number of questionable examples of "minorities who'd like things to go their way". Sure OK. Don't mind when majority wins there. But let's go back to 50s USA. Should black people wait until the white majority vote that they should have equal rights? What if that never happens? Minority being oppressed by majority is still something wrong IMO. Even if according to strict democracy that's perfectly OK.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 09:48 AM)TechnoMonkey Wrote:  
(08-07-2016 08:32 AM)LadyDay Wrote:  Of course, if you have a law against keeping your face covered in public areas that should go for any type of face-covering, religious or not.

My bank will not let me in with a motorcycle helmet on and they know me.

Which is perfectly reasonable... and if you insisted on entering while wearing your motorcycle helmet you'd probably get tackled by security, and IMO that'd be a correct decision.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 04:44 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 02:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And since we're talking Switzerland, they may be a bit hypocritical.

[Image: madonna-says-goodbye-2014-ski-switzerland.jpg]

Except that Madonna is attempting to protect her face against the sub-zero temperature, and not hide her identity for nefarious purposes. Totally different thing.

That's right. Madonna (glad you recognized her in that picture, which I chose deliberately) is doing it for a specific purpose.

The Muslim women are also doing it for a specific purpose: showing modesty (as their culture teaches it) when out in public. They really think that, and it's integral to that cultural belief system. What I happen to think about it (RIDICULOUS!!) is irrelevant to the question of legislation.

While I agree that there are far too many instances of women being forced by the male-dominated culture to do something like that, it is just as often enforced by groups of other women who have internalized that form of Islam's views of what constitutes public modesty, and of course enforced by a personal desire to conform to the standards of that ethnicity/culture. Many Muslim women do choose it for themselves, out of a sense of moral obligation, and I disagree with a law that removes that choice from them.

I would agree with a law that punishes anyone who forces another person, under threat, to wear a covering. But I stand against any law that look suspiciously like an attempt to restrict the religious rights of a minority faith.

I would also agree with a version of the law that said "cannot be worn in high-danger public spaces", such as banks, etc., provided there were alternate ways for those women to access the services provided by those spaces (online banking, for instance).

There is no demonstrated "clear and present danger" presented by people wearing traditional Muslim garb, of which I am aware, which would justify the intrusion on the religious beliefs of the Muslims of that nation, including their (bizarre, to me) belief that a woman showing her face is an immoral action for a Muslim.

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11-07-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If that's the case, then smoking in your home but not in a restaurant is the same choice. Smokers lost that argument in most places.

Another poor analogy, given that garb doesn't affect the health of bystanders.

(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So some claim it's about modesty (Evangelicals say the same thing about abstinence only education), and in practice, it's a tool of inequality and oppression. It looks like Switzerland doens't want that tool becoming a cultural norm, and took steps to preempt that.

Of course it's an obnoxious practice. But I'm not a big fan of prophylactic law. Nor am I a big fan of a government dictating elements of fashion based on what some, not all adherents use the garb for.

For some Muslim women, it absolutely is about modesty.

(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If Switzerland thinks that the public good is more important than their choice? If removing the burqa and it's disgusting cultural baggage from the public sphere is worth it? That's their choice too.

Well, yeah. That's what we're discussing.

(11-07-2016 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So fucking literal...

I don't think anybody is at all that worried about a potential rash of burqa clad bank robberies in Switzerland any time soon. That is a far cry from recognizing the anti-woman cultural baggage inextricably tied to the burqa, and wanting to have no part in it. Much like how Germany has banned the use of the Swastika, because they too want nothing to do with it and are trying to distance themselves culturally from it and it's associated baggage.

In other words, using the law to shape the attitudes of the citizenry? That, too, should be outside the purview of the law and governmental power, in my opinion.

An interesting article on the French ban having been upheld: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j...ban-ruling
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11-07-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 09:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 06:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  Again, public safety outweighs this. Religious freedom is not absolute.

And yet there's no justification offered beyond "public safety". As I've asked repeatedly, *if* this law does have an impact on public safety it should be easily demonstrable. If it doesn't then citing public safety as a reason for adopting it is fallacious IMO.

Public safety indicates that it's best that we censor the news. This is actually a hot topic in SA at the moment. The local monopoly has been ordered to only show positive news stories despite widespread public unrest. Why shouldn't they show negative news? Public safety. No justification beyond that. And indeed, I expect that if you only show people positive news stories they probably *are* in fact, that much less likely to riot. Maybe press freedom also should not be absolute?

Multiple examples of why full covering of anyone's full person is threatening and potentially dangerous have been given. It isn't allowed in some obvious areas like banks.

I have no sympathy at all for religious or cultural practices that threaten or endanger others. If they don't understand why a liberal, humanist, democratic, free society would consider their actions potentially threatening, they are socially tone deaf.

I don't expect another culture to accede to my cultural wishes when I'm in their milieu, and neither should they.
They came to the west voluntarily. They can leave the same way if they don't like the culture.

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