Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Multiple examples of why full covering of anyone's full person is threatening and potentially dangerous have been given. It isn't allowed in some obvious areas like banks.

I have no sympathy at all for religious or cultural practices that threaten or endanger others. If they don't understand why a liberal, humanist, democratic, free society would consider their actions potentially threatening, they are socially tone deaf.

I don't expect another culture to accede to my cultural wishes when I'm in their milieu, and neither should they.
They came to the west voluntarily. They can leave the same way if they don't like the culture.

Horse shit.

Simply because something may be threatening or endangering to others, or abused in a way that is actually dangerous, is not itself a reason to ban it. You're using the same argument here on Muslim garb that assholes here in the USA are using against transgender people using bathrooms appropriate to their gender.

And seriously, did you just use the "love it or leave" argument??? [ETA: Why would you even assume that person "came" to Switzerland in the first place? Do you think they had no traditional Muslims there, before? Or people who converted to Islam who were born there? Or is it only immigrants with whom you take issue?]

When an alleged believer in the "liberal, humanist, democratic, free society" you claim to be championing says "do it the way we want or leave", you've abandoned every principle you listed. We're not the ones who are being "socially tone deaf", in that case.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-07-2016, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 01:16 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 05:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 02:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I understand your issues. But I don't think that justifies a law against such things.
Laws against knives and guns, sure.
But laws against burqas, or masks or hoodies? Nah, just keep your distance from people that seem suspect.

Just keep your distance from people with knives or guns. Drinking Beverage
People hide knives and guns, most of the time you don't know they have them.

How far away do you need to be from a person with a gun in order to be safe? 100m, 1 km?

Anyway, USA is pretty much bottom of my list of places to visit, so keeping away from that mess.
But to most people it is obvious to have laws against guns and knives. But doesn't seem reasonable to have laws against head coverings.
In NZ we have some women in burkas and they are fine, people don't run from them in fear.
However if a person was walking around with a machete or a gun in town, then people would be running, screaming, crying, they would be calling the police.
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11-07-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 09:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 06:35 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Clarify...

You cited a number of questionable examples of "minorities who'd like things to go their way". Sure OK. Don't mind when majority wins there. But let's go back to 50s USA. Should black people wait until the white majority vote that they should have equal rights? What if that never happens? Minority being oppressed by majority is still something wrong IMO. Even if according to strict democracy that's perfectly OK.

Uhh...

In case you haven't noticed -- a black guy got voted in as President..... (I voted for him myself in his second term).....

So, I kinda think we're at the point where the majority of white people feel OK about black people,.....

Ya think??


.....

.......................................

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11-07-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:25 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 09:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  You cited a number of questionable examples of "minorities who'd like things to go their way". Sure OK. Don't mind when majority wins there. But let's go back to 50s USA. Should black people wait until the white majority vote that they should have equal rights? What if that never happens? Minority being oppressed by majority is still something wrong IMO. Even if according to strict democracy that's perfectly OK.

Uhh...

In case you haven't noticed -- a black guy got voted in as President..... (I voted for him myself in his second term).....

So, I kinda think we're at the point where the majority of white people feel OK about black people,.....

Ya think??


.....

Nope. Just having a black president or having black friends doesn't magically do away with racism. *I've* got a black president and there's sure as hell plenty of racism over this side.

But my point wasn't about that. It was that simply saying "majority knows best" clearly doesn't work in that case. If majority always knows best then attitudes from the 50s would still be prevalent today and explicit legalised discrimination would not be a thing of the past in the USA.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 01:25 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Uhh...

In case you haven't noticed -- a black guy got voted in as President..... (I voted for him myself in his second term).....

So, I kinda think we're at the point where the majority of white people feel OK about black people,.....

Ya think??


.....

Nope. Just having a black president or having black friends doesn't magically do away with racism. *I've* got a black president and there's sure as hell plenty of racism over this side.

But my point wasn't about that. It was that simply saying "majority knows best" clearly doesn't work in that case. If majority always knows best then attitudes from the 50s would still be prevalent today and explicit legalised discrimination would not be a thing of the past in the USA.
OK... I agree -- "majority doesn't always work best" --- we'll consider that a given ---- but when DOES majority work best??

We usually like our elections that way -- (although 2000 might indicate otherwise).....

See???

Who decides, when the majority wins??

Tricky, if you ask me.....

There certainly doesn't seem to be any clear cut answer....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-07-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  They came to the west voluntarily. They can leave the same way if they don't like the culture.

Humm. So maybe we should kick out all our minorities if they ever express a desire to dress differently? Send the gays all to gay-land, the gun-nuts over to America, the solution to every problem can be "if you don't like it, leave". These may already be Swiss citizens - certainly in France there are French citizens affected. And now they must what? Fuck off back to the desert? Because other citizens have decided they don't deserve to keep rights that they had before. "They came to the West voluntarily" huh? So refugees from a conflict in the Middle East largely the result of American foreign policy took a free choice. I mean, they had the choice to stay too, didn't they?

This discussion has only confirmed for me that my initial gut feeling was correct. I've seen nothing to even remotely convince me that this law is fair or just or even a good idea.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:44 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  OK... I agree -- "majority doesn't always work best" --- we'll consider that a given ---- but when DOES majority work best??

We usually like our elections that way -- (although 2000 might indicate otherwise).....

See???

Who decides, when the majority wins??

Tricky, if you ask me.....

There certainly doesn't seem to be any clear cut answer....

Well... I've always rather admired the concept of a constitution. Where rights are guaranteed to the population regardless of what the majority think. I also admire the UN declaration of human rights, although as far as I am aware there is not a single nation which fully conforms to it.

Freedom of expression, including the freedom to choose the clothes that one wears and the freedom to e.g. create subversive artwork - basically the principle that the government must butt the fuck out of your life - to me is perhaps not as well known of a right, as compared to freedom of speech, but no less precious for that.

As RS said in his first post in this thread, the real question is does this law survive a constitutional challenge? Because I think it should fail massively.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 03:08 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:44 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  OK... I agree -- "majority doesn't always work best" --- we'll consider that a given ---- but when DOES majority work best??

We usually like our elections that way -- (although 2000 might indicate otherwise).....

See???

Who decides, when the majority wins??

Tricky, if you ask me.....

There certainly doesn't seem to be any clear cut answer....

Well... I've always rather admired the concept of a constitution. Where rights are guaranteed to the population regardless of what the majority think. I also admire the UN declaration of human rights, although as far as I am aware there is not a single nation which fully conforms to it.

Freedom of expression, including the freedom to choose the clothes that one wears and the freedom to e.g. create subversive artwork - basically the principle that the government must butt the fuck out of your life - to me is perhaps not as well known of a right, as compared to freedom of speech, but no less precious for that.

As RS said in his first post in this thread, the real question is does this law survive a constitutional challenge? Because I think it should fail massively.


I don't know what's best for the people of Switzerland.....


I'll defer to their choices of what they decide is best for their country....

They've always been good about doing the same for other countries....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-07-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 03:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I don't know what's best for the people of Switzerland.....


I'll defer to their choices of what they decide is best for their country....

They've always been good about doing the same for other countries....

Truly, anyone who dares to comment on such a thing without actually being Swiss is being incredibly rude and presumptuous. Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 03:10 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 03:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I don't know what's best for the people of Switzerland.....


I'll defer to their choices of what they decide is best for their country....

They've always been good about doing the same for other countries....

Truly, anyone who dares to comment on such a thing without actually being Swiss is being incredibly rude and presumptuous. Rolleyes

You know I'm not saying that......

It's wonderful to comment on such stuff -- but, I'm not really too concerned as my input means nothing to the people of Switzerland.....

I'm sure they'll come to a reasonable conclusion on this -- they've got a great track record of being reasonable.....

.......................................

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