Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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11-07-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  As RS said in his first post in this thread, the real question is does this law survive a constitutional challenge? Because I think it should fail massively.

Think so? It didn't fail in France...

France's burqa ban upheld by human rights court

Judges at the European court of human rights (ECHR) have upheld France's burqa ban, accepting Paris's argument that it encouraged citizens to "live together".

....nor did it fail in Belgium , Netherlands , Turkey , Tunisia , Germany , Spain, Italy or Russia or even Syria .
All of this countries have partial or full ban on burka.

http://www.news.com.au/national/burqa-ba...d0fa98e316

You may notice that some of those countries are predominately Muslim countries.

I guess they are oppressing themselves?

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11-07-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 03:24 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Judges at the European court of human rights (ECHR) have upheld France's burqa ban, accepting Paris's argument that it encouraged citizens to "live together".

Didja read the full article? It was fucken hopelessly argued. Even the French were surprised it was upheld. "No burqas = encouragement to 'live together'" whatever that means. Bloody infantile logic. But. Fair enough. Upheld by the EU court of human rights. Doesn't mean that I think they got it right.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 03:23 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I'm sure they'll come to a reasonable conclusion on this -- they've got a great track record of being reasonable.....

They've come to *their* conclusion already - by referendum no less.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 03:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 03:24 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Judges at the European court of human rights (ECHR) have upheld France's burqa ban, accepting Paris's argument that it encouraged citizens to "live together".

Didja read the full article? It was fucken hopelessly argued. Even the French were surprised it was upheld. "No burqas = encouragement to 'live together'" whatever that means. Bloody infantile logic. But. Fair enough. Upheld by the EU court of human rights. Doesn't mean that I think they got it right.

Well, I didn't say that it was brilliantly argued, I was just responding to your opinion that it wouldn't pass "constitutional challenge" whatever you meant by that, law is already in power and there is no indication, that I am aware of, that it is being challenged by anybody.

If you have any such info, please share.

Law is passed as a consequence of a referendum held back in 2013 , I am assuming it has survived any challenges it needed to.

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11-07-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Some arguments I found that are in support of banning burka. These are not my arguments and I am not claiming they are valid, just sharing what other people argued and we didn't think of. up for debate.

Burqa worsens attitude of men toward women Burqa cultivates an attitude that women are possessions, or "jewels" to be protected for a man's own use. This attitude, and the sexual repression that comes from an environment where men can't even see women until they are married to them, creates a dangerous combination that fosters abuse, sexual harassment, molestation, and even rape.


States where burqa is prominent violate women's rights. There is a clear correlation between countries where the burqa is prominent and countries where the worst violations of women's rights occur. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudia Arabia, the three countries with the highest prevalence of women wearing burqas, all also have the worst records in the world of the oppression of women. This includes, with only slight variation, forbidding women to leave the home without supervision, forbidding them to drive, work, go to social gatherings, swim, etc. The burqa is intimately tied-up with these horrendous human rights and women's right violations. Attempting to justify the burqa outside of this context is intellectually irresponsible.

Face-covering veils undermine social interaction/cohesion Jean-Francois Cope. "Tearing Away the Veil" New York Times. May 4th, 2010: "The permanent concealment of the face also raises the question of social interactions in our democracies. [...] Individual liberty is vital, but individuals, like communities, must accept compromises that are indispensable to living together, in the name of certain principles that are essential to the common good. [...] [Wearing the burqa or niqab] is an insurmountable obstacle to the affirmation of a political community that unites citizens without regard to differences in sex, origin or religious faith. How can you establish a relationship with a person who, by hiding a smile or a glance — those universal signs of our common humanity — refuses to exist in the eyes of others?"


Burqa prevents women from absorbing adequate sunlight Daniel Pipes. "Ban the Burqa - and the Niqab Too." Jerusalem Post. August 1, 2007: "British research offers another reason to drop the burqa and niqab, finding that covered women and their breast-fed children lack sufficient amounts of vitamin D (which the skin absorbs from sunlight) and are at serious risk of rickets."
Burqas can lead to rickets for babies of burqa wearers Daniel Pipes. "Burqa Crime." The American Conservative Union Foundation. September 30, 2009: "new studies in both England and Ireland have found that covered women (and their breast-fed children) tend to get rickets disease due to an insufficiency of vitamin D, which the skin absorbs from sunlight."

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11-07-2016, 04:15 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Interesting read


Iranian actress who posted photos online not wearing a hijab forced to flee country

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11-07-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 05:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Just keep your distance from people with knives or guns. Drinking Beverage
People hide knives and guns, most of the time you don't know they have them.

How far away do you need to be from a person with a gun in order to be safe? 100m, 1 km?

Anyway, USA is pretty much bottom of my list of places to visit, so keeping away from that mess.
But to most people it is obvious to have laws against guns and knives. But doesn't seem reasonable to have laws against head coverings.
In NZ we have some women in burkas and they are fine, people don't run from them in fear.
However if a person was walking around with a machete or a gun in town, then people would be running, screaming, crying, they would be calling the police.

And if that weapon were concealed under a burqa worn by someone with violent intent ...

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11-07-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 02:47 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  They came to the west voluntarily. They can leave the same way if they don't like the culture.

Humm. So maybe we should kick out all our minorities if they ever express a desire to dress differently?

That is not comparable. Try again.

Quote:Send the gays all to gay-land, the gun-nuts over to America, the solution to every problem can be "if you don't like it, leave".

No, the solution is to ban threatening behavior.

Quote:These may already be Swiss citizens - certainly in France there are French citizens affected. And now they must what? Fuck off back to the desert? Because other citizens have decided they don't deserve to keep rights that they had before. "They came to the West voluntarily" huh? So refugees from a conflict in the Middle East largely the result of American foreign policy took a free choice. I mean, they had the choice to stay too, didn't they?

I'd be interested to know just how many native-born Swiss fundamentalist Muslims there are. I suspect that number is miniscule.

Quote:This discussion has only confirmed for me that my initial gut feeling was correct. I've seen nothing to even remotely convince me that this law is fair or just or even a good idea.

There have been suicide bombers who have concealed the explosives under the burqa.

Suicide bomber in burqa kills 15 people in Chad capital

Burqa-clad suicide bomber kills 45 in Pakistan

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11-07-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 01:00 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Multiple examples of why full covering of anyone's full person is threatening and potentially dangerous have been given. It isn't allowed in some obvious areas like banks.

I have no sympathy at all for religious or cultural practices that threaten or endanger others. If they don't understand why a liberal, humanist, democratic, free society would consider their actions potentially threatening, they are socially tone deaf.

I don't expect another culture to accede to my cultural wishes when I'm in their milieu, and neither should they.
They came to the west voluntarily. They can leave the same way if they don't like the culture.

Horse shit.

Simply because something may be threatening or endangering to others, or abused in a way that is actually dangerous, is not itself a reason to ban it. You're using the same argument here on Muslim garb that assholes here in the USA are using against transgender people using bathrooms appropriate to their gender.

And seriously, did you just use the "love it or leave" argument??? [ETA: Why would you even assume that person "came" to Switzerland in the first place? Do you think they had no traditional Muslims there, before? Or people who converted to Islam who were born there? Or is it only immigrants with whom you take issue?]

When an alleged believer in the "liberal, humanist, democratic, free society" you claim to be championing says "do it the way we want or leave", you've abandoned every principle you listed. We're not the ones who are being "socially tone deaf", in that case.

Things that seem threatening (because they could, in fact, be threats) are banned currently.
Why is this any different?

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11-07-2016, 11:20 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 09:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  Things that seem threatening (because they could, in fact, be threats) are banned currently.
Why is this any different?

What things?

Different from what?

Can you please provide a few examples, that I might compare-and-contrast?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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