Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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12-07-2016, 03:00 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 02:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 01:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  O`cmon , are you really gonna pretend that you are that stupid?

It was a man wearing burka, he is not concerned about being recognized after the fact , he was using burka to get to the place of attack without being stopped, searched or recognized as a possible threat.
I can hardly believe that you can`t see the possibility that a known criminal or a terrorist can wear burka so he can move freely without being recognized.

In the attack that Chas linked , the terrorist was attempting to enter a market dressed in burka.

Several witnesses said the bomber had tried to enter the market wearing a woman's burqa. Chad authorities banned the head-to-toe religious garment last month, citing the risk that attackers could use it as a disguise or hide explosives underneath.

"The suicide bomber was a man disguised as a woman (in a burqa). He tried to enter the market when he was intercepted by police," Manga said. "That is when he detonated the bomb."

There you go, direct evidence that a ban on burka saved lives , if Chad didn`t ban burka ,police wouldn`t have stopped him and he would be able to enter the market and kill a lot more people.

And... if he'd instead worn a jacket with his explosives underneath he would have been successful? Are markets women only places in Chad? FFS. If his battle plan was defective such that he wore a burqa and was denied access to the market is that a problem with the dress or with his intelligence?

Direct evidence that terrorist stupidity saves lives if you ask me.

ETA: So maybe we should ban jackets too? Since you can hide explosives under them.

FACE


I`s about the face. Ban on burka is about the fakn face, not what`s underneath his clothes.

Maybe his face was on the wanted list? Police are trained to recognize the signs of stress and anxiety on the peoples faces when they are about to do something illegal . If they can`t see their fakn faces it makes their job harder.

Why don`t you address any of the arguments I cited in one of my earlier posts? If you were really worried about the oppression you should be interested in correlation between burka and oppression.
How about medical reasons cited against wearing burka?
No?
I guess if it doesn`t fit the narrative you will ignore it.

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12-07-2016, 03:07 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 03:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Why don`t you address any of the arguments I cited in one of my earlier posts? If you were really worried about the oppression you should be interested in correlation between burka and oppression.
How about medical reasons cited against wearing burka?
No?
I guess if it doesn`t fit the narrative you will ignore it.

Rolleyes

Should cigarettes be a. banned or b. strongly discouraged by governments? I think that takes care of medical.

Second, sure. Islamic fundamentalists are a lousy lot. Countries they run sure do turn out to be nasty places. ... So let's punish some unrelated people by taking away their right to dress as they like. Taking away their right to wear the burqa isn't going to magically make their life situation less oppressive.

I didn't address these arguments because they seem to me to be totally irrelevant.

I agree, face recognition is in fact a reasonable argument in support of this. Hence why we're arguing about the right to wear a burqa *in public* and not saying that if someone doesn't want to show their face they should get away with it scott free.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-07-2016, 03:13 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 02:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  Anyone who dislikes my decree is welcome to freely choose to peaceably leave the USA.
The irony is that they will have to leave their guns behind, since they can't take them on the plane with them.

So less people but same amount of guns. The per capita ratio is now much worse than before. Hobo
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12-07-2016, 03:32 AM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2016 03:35 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 03:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 03:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Why don`t you address any of the arguments I cited in one of my earlier posts? If you were really worried about the oppression you should be interested in correlation between burka and oppression.
How about medical reasons cited against wearing burka?
No?
I guess if it doesn`t fit the narrative you will ignore it.

Rolleyes

Should cigarettes be a. banned or b. strongly discouraged by governments? I think that takes care of medical.

It would really help your arguments if you actually did some research before making them. In a sense that you would be wrong less often.

Some countries, including Swiss neighbours Italy and France, already have a nationwide ban in place. But Switzerland’s federal system, which had left the cantons in charge of the issue, resulted in a more piecemeal approach.

The Italian-speaking southern canton of Ticino (mine: that is the same canton that banned burka ) was the first to ban smoking three years ago. Other cantons followed suit, with some allowing staffed smoking areas and others permitting small “fumoirs” without service. Some, such as Appenzell Inner Rhodes, did not implement any measures.


So you see, Swiss have a ban on smoking too. Now let me see you rant about smokers being oppressed !?

Quote:Second, sure. Islamic fundamentalists are a lousy lot. Countries they run sure do turn out to be nasty places. ... So let's punish some unrelated people by taking away their right to dress as they like. Taking away their right to wear the burqa isn't going to magically make their life situation less oppressive.

It`s not going to magically make their situation lees oppressive but it probably , almost surely will in the long run.

It is not unrelated people. Wearing burka is a sign of Islamic fundamentalism, sign of not wanting to integrate and except western values and a refusal to be a part of society in a way that is expected in Switzerland and Swiss are not having it. It is indicative of creating a parallel fundamentalist Islamic society within Swiss society.
They are perfectly within their rights to ban it.

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12-07-2016, 03:58 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 03:32 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  It is not unrelated people. Wearing burka is a sign of Islamic fundamentalism, sign of not wanting to integrate and except western values and a refusal to be a part of society in a way that is expected in Switzerland and Swiss are not having it.
Is it a crime to not dress or act like westerners in Switzerland?

Perhaps after a year of living there people ought to be tested, see if they can sing the national anthem, see if they like skiing, and cheese with holes, and fondue and chocolate, make sure their cows have bells. If they don't pass the test then deport the bastards!

Can't have foreigners coming in and influencing the culture.
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12-07-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 03:32 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  So you see, Swiss have a ban on smoking too. Now let me see you rant about smokers being oppressed !?
Funny old thing, I don't believe the government should be making *that* decision either. In any case... there's good data to back up that smoking is bad for a person. Please point me to data that says that wearing a burqa is similarly dangerous.

Quote:It is not unrelated people. Wearing burka is a sign of Islamic fundamentalism, sign of not wanting to integrate and except western values and a refusal to be a part of society in a way that is expected in Switzerland and Swiss are not having it. It is indicative of creating a parallel fundamentalist Islamic society within Swiss society.
They are perfectly within their rights to ban it.

It's banning the form - why are the Swiss not just banning fundamentalist Islamic religion then, if it's so bad? Why is it about banning the symbol but not the disease. It's like treating TB by giving the person something for their cough but not treating the underlying disease wouldn't you say?

Of course they are perfectly within their rights to ban it... do you see me boycotting Swiss cheese?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-07-2016, 05:00 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 03:58 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 03:32 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  It is not unrelated people. Wearing burka is a sign of Islamic fundamentalism, sign of not wanting to integrate and except western values and a refusal to be a part of society in a way that is expected in Switzerland and Swiss are not having it.
Is it a crime to not dress or act like westerners in Switzerland?

When it comes to dressing obviously it is against the law if the way you are dressed is indicative of ideology that is not wanted in Switzerland, this is what they were aiming for with this law.

When it comes to acting...I have trouble believing that you are seriously asking this question. Of-fakn-course it is against the law not to act within the boundaries of Swiss law and Swiss law is in accordance with the ( western) values they are trying to uphold.
What, you think that somebody who came from Afghanistan should be allowed to beat his wife or mutilate his children genitalia because it`s ok in his culture and who the fuck are we to impose our culture and our western values on them, right?
In my culture people celebrate everything by shooting in the air, New Year`s eve sounds like the WWIII is starting.
Should I demand that Switzerland accommodates for my culture and allow me to celebrate in such a manner. I can promise you that they wouldn`t , they would arrest me , and me expecting a different outcome would be foolish on my part.

So, it is obviously more nuanced then you portray it to be , but bottom line is , yes , it is a crime not to act like a westerner in Switzerland, more precisely it is a crime to act in such a way that is against western values.

Quote:Perhaps after a year of living there people ought to be tested, see if they can sing the national anthem, see if they like skiing, and cheese with holes, and fondue and chocolate, make sure their cows have bells. If they don't pass the test then deport the bastards!

ahahahah...very funny Facepalm

Quote:Can't have foreigners coming in and influencing the culture.

It is entirely up to Swiss to decide what cultural influence and how much of it they want.

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12-07-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  When it comes to dressing obviously it is against the law if the way you are dressed is indicative of ideology that is not wanted in Switzerland, this is what they were aiming for with this law.

Indicative of, eh? Hmm. Or is it that people simply can't or won't see that there's a difference between the violent sub-group and the group overall?

See, that's the problem. It is indicative of Muslim fundamentalism, but not necessarily the violent Islamism that is violent toward others in the name of Islam. It's easy to conflate the two, I know. But while my parents are Christian fundamentalists and so are the abortion clinic bombers, the "God Hates Fags" assholes at Westboro Baptist Church, and the people who beat up little atheist kids who just want to stop being forced to go to religious assemblies at school, my folks condone none of those things, despite technically belonging to the same group. If there was an equivalent symbol (say, a funny hat... religions seem to like those) which my mother felt obligated to wear as a major element of her faith, I'd be hard pressed to justify taking that away from her just because the guys who killed Dr. Tiller also wore the same funny hat.

I simply do not buy the premise that a person being a religious fundamentalist means they are not willing to become (or be) part of the culture, while also clinging to their ethnic traditions. They may not fully blend into Swiss traditions (such as women walking around uncovered, for instance), but that's part of pluralism.


(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  What, you think that somebody who came from Afghanistan should be allowed to beat his wife or mutilate his children genitalia because it`s ok in his culture and who the fuck are we to impose our culture and our western values on them, right?

Not a fair argument. The two examples you list here are direct harms which may be prohibited by law. Likewise, a woman being forced under duress to cover herself with a burqa should be prohibited under the same principle. I fully support the stiffest penalties being applied for such actions. These are very different questions from imposing a dress code against the will of a consenting adult.

(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  In my culture people celebrate everything by shooting in the air, New Year`s eve sounds like the WWIII is starting. Should I demand that Switzerland accommodates for my culture and allow me to celebrate in such a manner. I can promise you that they wouldn`t , they would arrest me , and me expecting a different outcome would be foolish on my part.

I don't follow the equivalence, here. Shooting off fireworks causes a direct and unavoidable impact on everyone within the range of their effects, and could be banned under the harm principle, the same as FGM, duress, or assault. Again, whether a person may impose upon others is a different question from whether a person may voluntarily choose an action that is part of their ethnic/religious traditions.

(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  So, it is obviously more nuanced then you portray it to be , but bottom line is , yes , it is a crime not to act like a westerner in Switzerland, more precisely it is a crime to act in such a way that is against western values.

I'm not really sure what that means. "Western values" include religious freedom, in every country with which I am familiar. There are of course circumstances where the state may intrude upon those practices, but they are limited in scope and require a fairly high bar to sustain. I have seen no arguments from the countries that have been listed so far that appear to meet that bar; rather, I see an excuse made out of fear.

(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  It is entirely up to Swiss to decide what cultural influence and how much of it they want.

While this is certainly true, I would argue that banning a practice of religious modesty is a dangerous precedent to set in a supposedly free, pluralistic society. The only analogous situation I can think of would be to ban women from covering their breasts, even though that is almost universally a practice among Christians, because some think it is repressive to women to do so... even when those women choose to do it. I would find the excuse "but this woman hid a gun in her bra" to be a flimsy excuse.

That is not to say the decision to allow the practice of wearing burqas is danger-free. Of course it imposes some danger. But I simply cannot agree that the degree of danger this represents overcomes the strong appearance of sending an official governmental message that says "your kind are not welcome here!", a practice that is against every "Western value" for which I stand.

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12-07-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 06:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 05:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  When it comes to dressing obviously it is against the law if the way you are dressed is indicative of ideology that is not wanted in Switzerland, this is what they were aiming for with this law.

Indicative of, eh? Hmm. Or is it that people simply can't or won't see that there's a difference between the violent sub-group and the group overall?

See, that's the problem. It is indicative of Muslim fundamentalism, but not necessarily the violent Islamism that is violent toward others in the name of Islam. It's easy to conflate the two, I know. But while my parents are Christian fundamentalists and so are the abortion clinic bombers, the "God Hates Fags" assholes at Westboro Baptist Church, and the people who beat up little atheist kids who just want to stop being forced to go to religious assemblies at school, my folks condone none of those things, despite technically belonging to the same group. If there was an equivalent symbol (say, a funny hat... religions seem to like those) which my mother felt obligated to wear as a major element of her faith, I'd be hard pressed to justify taking that away from her just because the guys who killed Dr. Tiller also wore the same funny hat.

I simply do not buy the premise that a person being a religious fundamentalist means they are not willing to become (or be) part of the culture, while also clinging to their ethnic traditions. They may not fully blend into Swiss traditions (such as women walking around uncovered, for instance), but that's part of pluralism.

I agree that burka it is not necessarily a sign of a violent fundamentalism , but maybe argument can be made that it goes hand in hand with violent fundamentalism , I have posted some outside arguments that show correlation between oppression and a culture of wearing burkas.


Burqa worsens attitude of men toward women Burqa cultivates an attitude that women are possessions, or "jewels" to be protected for a man's own use. This attitude, and the sexual repression that comes from an environment where men can't even see women until they are married to them, creates a dangerous combination that fosters abuse, sexual harassment, molestation, and even rape.


States where burqa is prominent violate women's rights. There is a clear correlation between countries where the burqa is prominent and countries where the worst violations of women's rights occur. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudia Arabia, the three countries with the highest prevalence of women wearing burqas, all also have the worst records in the world of the oppression of women. This includes, with only slight variation, forbidding women to leave the home without supervision, forbidding them to drive, work, go to social gatherings, swim, etc. The burqa is intimately tied-up with these horrendous human rights and women's right violations. Attempting to justify the burqa outside of this context is intellectually irresponsible.


Are those arguments valid, idk, they seem valid to me, but I can`t claim they are for sure.

It might not be violent fundamentalism they are after but rather the oppressive fundamentalism that they see as being perpetuated by burka wearing.
Probably they didn`t care if it is a sign of violent or non violent fundamentalism , they seem not to tolerate either one.

It also seems ( see the cigarettes ban quotes ) that Swiss are prone to opt for legal ban rather then to try to discourage the unwonted behavior by less intrusive measures.


Quote:Not a fair argument. The two examples you list here are direct harms which may be prohibited by law. Likewise, a woman being forced under duress to cover herself with a burqa should be prohibited under the same principle. I fully support the stiffest penalties being applied for such actions. These are very different questions from imposing a dress code against the will of a consenting adult.

Ok, my example too extreme and not quite to the point , but how could they know if a women wearing a burka is doing it on her own will or she is forced to do it ?
They scan`t stop and ask every one of them , and the ones who are forced to do so are not really free to speak up on the matter.

In that sense this law is not targeting women who are wearing burka on their own free will but the ones who are forcing the women to wear them.

Ok, maybe I`m stretching it a bit here , maybe it`s a valid point, I can`t even tell anymore. Laugh out load

Quote:I don't follow the equivalence, here. Shooting off fireworks causes a direct and unavoidable impact on everyone within the range of their effects, and could be banned under the harm principle, the same as FGM, duress, or assault. Again, whether a person may impose upon others is a different question from whether a person may voluntarily choose an action that is part of their ethnic/religious traditions.

I wasn`t talking about fireworks , but real guns. Equivalence is there, in a sense that "unavoidable impact on everyone within the range of their effects" as you put it is a culturally subjective matter.
In Serbia nobody bets an eye over guns being fired on New Year or Christmas.
Serves as a counter argument to the "there are very few incidents of terrorists wearing burkas" and similar arguments , because the same argument can be made over firing guns in the air with incidents being extremely rare so nobody can really claim "harm" as a reason for a ban.

Quote:I'm not really sure what that means. "Western values" include religious freedom, in every country with which I am familiar. There are of course circumstances where the state may intrude upon those practices, but they are limited in scope and require a fairly high bar to sustain. I have seen no arguments from the countries that have been listed so far that appear to meet that bar; rather, I see an excuse made out of fear.

Idk, I guess that those countries thought that the bar was met in this case and banning burka is a limited intrusion , imo.

Quote:While this is certainly true, I would argue that banning a practice of religious modesty is a dangerous precedent to set in a supposedly free, pluralistic society. The only analogous situation I can think of would be to ban women from covering their breasts, even though that is almost universally a practice among Christians, because some think it is repressive to women to do so... even when those women choose to do it. I would find the excuse "but this woman hid a gun in her bra" to be a flimsy excuse.

That is not to say the decision to allow the practice of wearing burqas is danger-free. Of course it imposes some danger. But I simply cannot agree that the degree of danger this represents overcomes the strong appearance of sending an official governmental message that says "your kind are not welcome here!", a practice that is against every "Western value" for which I stand.

I don`t buy the "modesty" argument. I find it to more of an excuse pedaled to defend the practice.


I`m in a bit of rush now, i might revisit some of the arguments I made here.

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12-07-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(12-07-2016 12:58 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 09:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  And if that weapon were concealed under a burqa worn by someone with violent intent ...
Then the problem is the weapon more so that the clothes used to conceal it.

Should we ban pockets because people can carry guns and knives in their pockets or should we ban guns and knives?

If we ban burqas due to their ability to conceal weapons then we need to ban most clothes.

But we shouldn't be thinking of that bump under the burqa as being a weapon. It is a woman, a person, an individual. Rather than run perhaps you could say hi.

You can't hide much under normal clothes. It is a matter of degree.

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