Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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13-07-2016, 07:03 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 06:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-07-2016 01:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um. Can you read the post you quoted and imagine if the US government was to autocratically impose a gun ban - based on the logic presented, and tell me that you wouldn't fight it tooth and nail? For the purposes of argument we're gonna assume that whatever checks and balances were supposed to kick in didn't, the NRA were off duck-shooting, and so the change got made into law. Now it's your job to challenge it and the government says the justification is as follows:
  • Public safety.
  • Guns perpetuate a macho culture which I find offensive.
  • Guns are scary and if I was walking in a park where someone had a gun I would run away.

Yet exactly the same logic is being used to defend this burqa ban, in this thread. ETA: and no matter how dangerous you think burqas are, you've got to admit that an article of clothing is less dangerous than an actual weapon, right?

Not exactly the same - I did not use your bullet number 2 in the argument.

For bullet number 1, what is the negative effect on public safety of someone who has passed background checks carrying a firearm?

As for bullet number 3, there are not many places where it is legal to do so without a license. But please clarify - do you mean a pistol in a holster or someone carrying a rifle or shotgun?

The U.S. government can't do that until the Second Amendment gets changed.
A Supreme Court ruling that it doesn't protect an individual right could happen, but it would be in litigation for a very long time.

To make it exactly the same, we will need to institute a system of background checks and licensing for public burqa-wearing. Yes

I appreciate that you didn't use the arguments as I presented them. Others in the thread used one or all of them. I agree that of course in reality this scenario involving guns in the US will never occur - there's *far* too much legislation to get through, a simple ban as for the burqa wouldn't even make it from a law-makers brain to paper.

But to me it's instructive to consider it, by replacing the word "burqa" with the word "gun" you can see how absurd some of these arguments are, or at least how absurd they appear to me.

For example, in support of the notion that burqas are a danger to public safety numerous violent incidents involving people wearing burqas have been cited. I could quite easily do the same with reference to guns and be dismissed out of hand as people would simply say "no, but it's not the gun that's inherently dangerous, it's the fact that it is in the hands of a fanatical lunatic", yet somehow when applied to dress, burqas draw the rap, not the fanatical lunatics.

You've mentioned that it's the hiding of a person's identity that's an issue. As far as I'm aware everyone in the thread agrees that hiding identity is off the cards - hence, as a person can be required by an officer of the law to produce ID (here in SA anyway) on demand, so too can they be required to show their face. This doesn't require a total ban on an article of dress.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-07-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 07:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  You've mentioned that it's the hiding of a person's identity that's an issue. As far as I'm aware everyone in the thread agrees that hiding identity is off the cards - hence, as a person can be required by an officer of the law to produce ID (here in SA anyway) on demand, so too can they be required to show their face. This doesn't require a total ban on an article of dress.

Anyone demanding to see the face of a Muslim woman wearing a burqa would be violating her religion and religious freedom.
This would be murderously offensive. Drinking Beverage

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13-07-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 07:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-07-2016 07:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  You've mentioned that it's the hiding of a person's identity that's an issue. As far as I'm aware everyone in the thread agrees that hiding identity is off the cards - hence, as a person can be required by an officer of the law to produce ID (here in SA anyway) on demand, so too can they be required to show their face. This doesn't require a total ban on an article of dress.

Anyone demanding to see the face of a Muslim woman wearing a burqa would be violating her religion and religious freedom.
This would be murderously offensive. Drinking Beverage

There's a clear rationale for demanding someone to show their face for security reasons. Not under dispute. Even in the French constitutional challenge the plaintiff indicated her willingness to show her face if legally required to do so (e.g. by a policeman). There's no such rationale offered for banning the garment.

If ID is the issue then motorcycle helmets and all other forms of face covering should be banned as well.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-07-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Usually someone will cover their face during an activity for protection.

Riding a motorcycle. - You don't wear the helmet all day, while you are at work, etc.

Snow skiing - face is covered to provide protection from cold. When you are inside, that baclava comes off.

If you are required to have your face covered during a religious ceremony, that's fine, but when that ceremony is over, the facial covering should be removed.

We wear Halloween masks one day a year and typically the mask isn't worn a full 24 hours without removing it. That would be creepy.

Would society or your company allow someone to wear a mask all the time ? This would be aberrant behavior. Your employer would fire you, unless your employer also wore a mask all of the time. It's unlikely your friends would remain friends, unless they were also wearing masks too.

Covering your face, obscuring your vision and concealing your identity can't be good if you want your society to flourish.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-07-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  If ID is the issue then motorcycle helmets and all other forms of face covering should be banned as well.

Including DarkWanderer's beard.

#sigh
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13-07-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-07-2016 07:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Anyone demanding to see the face of a Muslim woman wearing a burqa would be violating her religion and religious freedom.
This would be murderously offensive. Drinking Beverage

There's a clear rationale for demanding someone to show their face for security reasons. Not under dispute. Even in the French constitutional challenge the plaintiff indicated her willingness to show her face if legally required to do so (e.g. by a policeman). There's no such rationale offered for banning the garment.

If ID is the issue then motorcycle helmets and all other forms of face covering should be banned as well.0

You missed my point.

The burqa is a religious requirement and showing one's face would violate the purpose for wearing it.

Functional face covering doesn't have that problem.

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13-07-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 11:50 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Covering your face, obscuring your vision and concealing your identity can't be good if you want your society to flourish.

... This is just your subjective opinion and it hardly seems very convincing logic. For that matter allowing gay people to marry is guaranteed to bring about the downfall of civilization.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-07-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 12:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-07-2016 07:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  There's a clear rationale for demanding someone to show their face for security reasons. Not under dispute. Even in the French constitutional challenge the plaintiff indicated her willingness to show her face if legally required to do so (e.g. by a policeman). There's no such rationale offered for banning the garment.

If ID is the issue then motorcycle helmets and all other forms of face covering should be banned as well.0

You missed my point.

The burqa is a religious requirement and showing one's face would violate the purpose for wearing it.

Functional face covering doesn't have that problem.

... The girl in the case doesn't have a problem showing her face for identification, she refuses to not wear the garment at all. Regardless of whether it violates the purpose of wearing it, she's prepared to do so. Why is it that she must be forced to conform? The face covering has a function, for her. Why is her desire to cover her face invalid?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-07-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 12:11 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you'd like to raise an issue about the ideas I present below, might we do it in that thread, or have you start another? I'd hate to derail this discussion into yet another gun discussion.
Yes, thanks for presenting your position. My intent wasn't to debate you on it. Wasn't to tell you that you are wrong.
From some reason, I am drawing a correlation (rightly or wrongly) between anti gun control and anti burqa. However my data points are very small on this so my correlation is very tenuous.

But of course in various ways even myself could be thought of as pro gun or pro gun control. So my question wasn't clear enough.

BTW I think your position is interesting. I can see why both sides might have issue with it, but at least you recognise that legal guns can (and do on many occasions) eventually make their way into illegal possession.
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13-07-2016, 02:13 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(13-07-2016 06:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  For bullet number 1, what is the negative effect on public safety of someone who has passed background checks carrying a firearm?
Guns get stolen or inherited or on-sold.
People get mad, change from being stable to being crazy.
People's situations change, they can go from financially OK, to financially desperate.

With regards to burqa, it's just a peice of cloth. Doesn't matter if it falls into the "wrong" hands.
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