Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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16-07-2016, 12:32 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2016 01:06 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(15-07-2016 03:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's actually where you miss the point. We are not faceless. Only the ones wearing masks are, and a burka makes it total.
If you saw me down the street you wouldn't know the difference between me and the next person.
You wouldn't know my name.
You wouldn't know my police record.
You wouldn't know anything about me.
Perhaps in a line up, if the police somehow had me as a suspect, you might recognise me. Who knows.

But whether you see my face or not, it doesn't make me dangerous.

What might make me dangerous is if I had a gun or a knife or a bomb.
A mask or face coving does not make me dangerous.
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16-07-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 12:32 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 03:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's actually where you miss the point. We are not faceless. Only the ones wearing masks are, and a burka makes it total.
If you saw me down the street you wouldn't know the difference between me and the next person.
You wouldn't know my name.
You wouldn't know my police record.
You wouldn't know anything about me.
Perhaps in a line up, if the police somehow had me as a suspect, you might recognise me. Who knows.

But whether you see my face or not, it doesn't make me dangerous.

What might make me dangerous is if I had a gun or a knife or a bomb.
A mask or face coving does not make me dangerous.

You're still missing the point which has been repeatedly stated:
if someone masked attacks you, there is no way to ID them.
Get it?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-07-2016, 01:24 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  You're still missing the point which has been repeatedly stated:
if someone masked attacks you, there is no way to ID them.
Get it?
If someone attacks you, you either defend yourself or you run away. It does not matter what their identity is.
Get it.
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16-07-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 01:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-07-2016 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  You're still missing the point which has been repeatedly stated:
if someone masked attacks you, there is no way to ID them.
Get it?
If someone attacks you, you either defend yourself or you run away. It does not matter what their identity is.
Get it.

Doesn't matter? Shocking
Do you live in a lawless society?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-07-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 01:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-07-2016 08:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  You're still missing the point which has been repeatedly stated:
if someone masked attacks you, there is no way to ID them.
Get it?
If someone attacks you, you either defend yourself or you run away. It does not matter what their identity is.
Get it.

It matters very much what their identity is - if I can see them I will make a better fight or flight decision, and I can remember what they looked like and help the police to catch them.

The world you start to describe now is just nuts, Stevil. Don't let defending a stand point take you to absurd positions.

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16-07-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 02:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  It matters very much what their identity is - if I can see them I will make a better fight or flight decision, and I can remember what they looked like and help the police to catch them.
Unless you are really busting to get into a fight, I would suggest running.
If you are really worried about a person in a burqa then keep your distance. They are easy to spot.

Hiding of identity is only important after the event. This is not what makes life dangerous to you. When you are identifying them in a line up, you are no longer in any danger.

It is far easier for a criminal to use a mask, balaclava etc than a burqa.
Burqa, I would imagine restricts movement and is hard to run in.


(16-07-2016 02:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  The world you start to describe now is just nuts, Stevil. Don't let defending a stand point take you to absurd positions.
I'm defending a position that is held by most of the free world.
It is rare that burka's are illegal.
It is rare that people are allowed to carry loaded guns in public.

USA is the exception. USA is a nutty country.
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16-07-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 03:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-07-2016 02:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  It matters very much what their identity is - if I can see them I will make a better fight or flight decision, and I can remember what they looked like and help the police to catch them.
Unless you are really busting to get into a fight, I would suggest running.
If you are really worried about a person in a burqa then keep your distance. They are easy to spot.

Hiding of identity is only important after the event. This is not what makes life dangerous to you. When you are identifying them in a line up, you are no longer in any danger.

It is far easier for a criminal to use a mask, balaclava etc than a burqa.
Burqa, I would imagine restricts movement and is hard to run in.

All face coverings should be banned; the burqa is just one of them.

Quote:
(16-07-2016 02:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  The world you start to describe now is just nuts, Stevil. Don't let defending a stand point take you to absurd positions.
I'm defending a position that is held by most of the free world.
It is rare that burka's are illegal.

Wrong - "Burqa bans already in place in many countries"

Quote:It is rare that people are allowed to carry loaded guns in public.

USA is the exception. USA is a nutty country.

The U.S. is not the only country that permits concealed or open carry.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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16-07-2016, 11:04 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:I'm defending a position that is held by most of the free world.
It is rare that burka's are illegal.

Wrong - "Burqa bans already in place in many countries"

Did you read that article Chas? It doesn't support your case at all.

That is 11 countries cited.
Of those, in Australia the burqa is legal.
Quote:Prime Minister Tony Abbott has promptly scrubbed those rules
"TONY ABBOTT: I wish they weren’t worn, but this is a free country"

Some of France's sentiments are not focused at all on the potential security threat of hiding one's identity but are instead anti-muslim
Quote:Then president Nicholas Sarkozy has controversially described Islamic dress as reducing women to “prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity.”

France had already passed a law in 2004 that banned “symbols or clothes through which students conspicuously display their religious affiliation” in educational establishments.

In Turkey it seems the ban was based on opposition to religion rather than security. They have lifted the ban
Quote:The ban was lifted to address concerns that the ban was discouraging women who wear it from eking government jobs or higher education.

The laws were originally established to keep religious symbolism out of the civil service due to Turkey’s attempt to be a modern, secular state.

For Spain, it was Barcelona, not the country that had the ban, but the supreme court threw out the ban
Quote:But Spain’s Supreme Court threw out the ordinances — which also applied to any headwear, including helmets and balaclavas — that impeded identification in 2013.

It seems in Italy they don't enforce the law for burqas
Quote:The law isn’t nationally enforced when it comes to Muslim face coverings but the government regularly debates expanding the decades-old law to impose special penalties on women who wear the burqa, niqab or any other garment that covers the face.

For some bizzare reason in Germany they ban school teachers from wearing the burqa but not anyone else
Quote:Wearing Muslim veils is not nationally outlawed in Germany but in 2003 the federal constitutional court ruled that state governments could impose such restrictions on school teachers.

And in Holland it is only in specific circumstances
Quote:In 2007 The Netherlands prohibited the full veil in schools and on public transport.

The ban has since been extended to universities and specific professions where face-to-face communication and eye contact is required.

(16-07-2016 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:It is rare that people are allowed to carry loaded guns in public.

USA is the exception. USA is a nutty country.

The U.S. is not the only country that permits concealed or open carry.
Agree, USA isn't the only country. But most western countries have more restrictions than USA.
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17-07-2016, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2016 01:21 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(16-07-2016 11:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  For some bizzare reason in Germany they ban school teachers from wearing the burqa but not anyone else
Quote:Wearing Muslim veils is not nationally outlawed in Germany but in 2003 the federal constitutional court ruled that state governments could impose such restrictions on school teachers.

The supreme court adapted its views in 2015.

From a press release of the supreme court concerning a decision from January 2015

Spoiler: the root cause is a (potential conflict) between freedom of religion (teachers) and freedom to be free from any political or religious bias at school (students).

I will now go into some more details, but beware, its hard to translate from court-german to german and then to english. Court german is -even by german standards- considered to be worse than klingon and chinese combined!

The court clearly states that a federal (nation wide) ban for wearing burqa would be unconstitutional. However each state is allowed to limit the (teachers) right to wear any garment he/she likes, but only in as much as a concrete (not theoretical, abstract!) danger is imposed on the students´ right to be free from any political or religious statements of their teachers. Thats why burqa and school is an issue here. Its important to note that while there is no general separation between church and state in germany, as you can see, schoolkids are protected against any kind of bias.

With this decision the supreme court nullified decisions of several lower courts that tried to ban two women from wearing burqa at school. This ban was based on a state law where they were teaching, which considered wearing burqa alone being a sufficient reason to violate the students rights for neutrality. Supreme court also states clearly that wearing burqa alone is clearly not sufficient, but if any other conduct is an infringement of the students right, the states are allowed to take action against this. It is stated clearly that only verbal statements are suitable to weigh against religious freedom and in favour of freedom to be free from bias at school.

On a sidenote: The AfD which is considered by many to be an alternative to the established political parties as well as the CSU (christian conservative party of bavaria), clearly advocates a general, nation wide ban of "full veil" (Vollverschleierung, we love german compund words, dont we? Tongue ).

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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17-07-2016, 03:14 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(17-07-2016 01:18 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(16-07-2016 11:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  For some bizzare reason in Germany they ban school teachers from wearing the burqa but not anyone else

The supreme court adapted its views in 2015.
Thanks for offering more info on the Germany situation. Seems quite interesting.

(17-07-2016 01:18 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I will now go into some more details, but beware, its hard to translate from court-german to german and then to english. Court german is -even by german standards- considered to be worse than klingon and chinese combined!
LOL

(17-07-2016 01:18 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The court clearly states that a federal (nation wide) ban for wearing burqa would be unconstitutional. However each state is allowed to limit the (teachers) right to wear any garment he/she likes, but only in as much as a concrete (not theoretical, abstract!) danger is imposed on the students´ right to be free from any political or religious statements of their teachers. Thats why burqa and school is an issue here. Its important to note that while there is no general separation between church and state in germany, as you can see, schoolkids are protected against any kind of bias.
Very interesting.
Obviously a teacher wearing Muslim clothes or a Christian cross necklace or a habit or whatnot isn't really the same as teaching the kids to believe in a particular god or particular religious viewpoint.
In society people wear these things, I'm all for schools being a reflection of society rather than a safety bubble. But of course the curriculum needs to be the official stuff presented by the govt for public schools. So as long as these people in religious clothes stick to official curriculum then it seems fine to me.

I think from what you have posted is that the courts are saying that too, but warning that if in the habit or burqa then they need to be extra careful about saying stuff that may seem religious.
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